Shane661
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posted December 29, 2009 04:22 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 29 Dec 2009 13:15
quote:
is anyone gonna say what their cost or the hp gains are ?
Roy
As soon as you tell us how much you were spraying when you broke your motor. 
It is well known that a small dry shot done properly is the best bang-for-buck mod of all. If someone had to pay to duplicate your stroker build, it would be around $3500 (or more) including labor, I imagine. That is without touching the transmission, cams or cylinder head. That is a lot of money for 20 hp or less.
Roy, you know that Ali (Shiphteey) is running a dry shot on a basically stock motor 12R with valve springs, and a fueling upgrade. He went 229.6 mph at Loring...on the limiter. The total costs of his system, including valve springs, is $1500 or less.
Shane
  
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wrongway
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posted December 29, 2009 04:29 AM
quote:
Cost is $6k for the turbo, by far a stroker is the least expensive way to go. How reliable is a 4mm stroke, no idea. The stroker will add piston speed if you use it for daily riding and lower total hours of use. Turbo will add ring pressure when is use and result in the same outcome. How you ride it depends on the life span. Hp gains for the turbo depends on the boost, right now I am running 7 lbs boost with a complete stock motor at 250 rwhp. A slick and good track will make a big difference, power is pain for the engine,clutch and can take its tole.
what di dhe stock bike dyno ? I have seen numbers everywhere form 160 - 200 ...
so how much hp was gained with the 6k cost ? 80 hp for 6k doesn't sound bad .
40 hp for 6k makes it more expensive.
It would cost 6k for a stroker , heads and cam to make the same power.
Roy
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Shane661
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posted December 29, 2009 05:38 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 29 Dec 2009 13:50
Roy, correct me if I am wrong on these costs for a high-hp stroker:
Muzzy kit (pistons and crank) $1700
Bore & Plate $500
Rods $1000
Cams $1100
Porting $2100
Trans Work $650 (ZX-14 transmissions have zero undercut, etc.)
Billet Clutch Basket $400
Lock Up Clutch $300
Exhaust $1000
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Parts $8750
Labor?? (At least a couple of thousand if you can't do it yourself)
Total: $10750 plus
That would be for a mythical 250 hp ZX-14 stroker, which I am not sure that a single one exists at this point. I added the exhaust expense because the turbo system usually includes an exhaust in the base cost.
I agree that it is pretty awesome to have an all-motor high hp bike, but you have to be realistic about the costs to do it right. I was entertaining some major engine work this winter, but after looking at the costs I can't afford it.
Shane
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JDC
Zone Head
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posted December 29, 2009 06:32 AM
Edited By: JDC on 29 Dec 2009 14:33
Why not calculate the cost of 'bang for the buck' by HP per dollar, at a given HP gain? NO2 seems the clear winner on the lower HP range and has the most cost effective HP gains, but incrementally those engine mods costs increase as you wind up the HP, and so the HP/$ gains decrease per $.
Doing a good stroker for high HP also gets into pretty high costs as well. Longievity is also an issue often. I know a builder of first place drag bikes who once, some years ago, built strokers also for the street on request. He quit doing that and made an 'upper limit' build for the street, simply because the reliability decreased too much for the average street rider to have reasonable 'security' in the long term stability of the engine.
I'd say for the track NO2 seems to be the usual given for most HP mods, moderately done.
For the street, every day driving, and with keeping the bike for some long mileage, I believe turbo is the way to go, mildly to just moderately done.
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wrongway
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posted December 29, 2009 06:44 AM
quote:
Roy, correct me if I am wrong on these costs for a high-hp stroker:
Muzzy kit (pistons and crank) $1700
Bore & Plate $500
Rods $1000
Cams $1100
Porting $2100
Trans Work $650 (ZX-14 transmissions have zero undercut, etc.)
Billet Clutch Basket $400
Lock Up Clutch $300
Exhaust $1000
--------------------
Parts $8750
Labor?? (At least a couple of thousand if you can't do it yourself)
Total: $10750 plus
That would be for a mythical 250 hp ZX-14 stroker, which I am not sure that a single one exists at this point. I added the exhaust expense because the turbo system usually includes an exhaust in the base cost.
I agree that it is pretty awesome to have an all-motor high hp bike, but you have to be realistic about the costs to do it right. I was entertaining some major engine work this winter, but after looking at the costs I can't afford it.
Shane
Rods $1000
Trans Work $650 (ZX-14 transmissions have zero undercut, etc.)
Billet Clutch Basket $400
Lock Up Clutch $300
you would do this for a turbo or nitrous motor .... so I would not incrude it in the $$/hp comparison. ..
Exhaust $1000 ???
most people slready had this on the stock motor, not sure it is paret of a motor build.
the question here wasnt how much it cost to build a 250 hp motor,, just what is more cost effective , especially if yo are on a budget..
I can see doing
1)stroker with stock heads /cams /tranny
2) heads /cams on a stock motor
3) Stage 1 turbo kit on a stock motor
i think these can be done for 3 -4k , but how much hp does each bring?
Roy
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Shane661
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posted December 29, 2009 06:49 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 29 Dec 2009 14:57
You don't need rods or pistons to run low boost or a dry shot. If you put pistons and rods in the turbo you can run over 300 hp on a stage 1. Also, the skill involved in installing a stage 1 turbo is not nearly as much as building a race motor...meaning you will save money.
If the turbo kit includes the exhaust, you need to include the exhaust in the stroker cost as well.
Stroker with stock head/cams/tranny makes no sense, imo. You already have the motor tore apart...why would you not upgrade the trans? You are making the engine huge..why would you not increase it's ability to breath?? I am really interested to see your hp #'s with the stock head.
A stock motor with a dry shot can make an easy gain of 35 rwhp. For $300 (including clutch springs). And the engine will live. You can't beat that bang-for-buck.
Shane
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1badzx12r
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posted December 29, 2009 12:04 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 29 Dec 2009 20:05
quote:
Mind you folks,our street 14 turbo weighs 543 lbs wet with 2 gallons of fuel, 743 lbs total weight with rider and I'm not the rider at the strip. .
yada yada yada ..mine zx14 weight is 835lbs with rider ... and all you'll see is tail lite and license plate
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1badzx12r
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posted December 29, 2009 12:13 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 29 Dec 2009 20:15
quote:
You don't need rods or pistons to run low boost or a dry shot. If you put pistons and rods in the turbo you can run over 300 hp on a stage 1
A stock motor with a dry shot can make an easy gain of 35 rwhp. For $300 (including clutch springs). And the engine will live. You can't beat that bang-for-buck.
Shane
if you want any longevity after 250hp you better have pistons and rods ..unless it a low boost high volume turbo you may not generate enough heat to break ..like the smaller turbos running higher boost to get the same hp. ..
yep and that nos is the best bang for the buck .. 300.00 for 30hp or you can buy a pipe cams air filter2000.00 and gain 20hp maybe
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Shane661
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posted December 29, 2009 12:18 PM
I agree about pistons and rods when you start to turn up the power. Roy's bike has rods in it, if I'm not mistaken...and it is just the stroker kit without head work or cams...way less than 250 hp.
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Shane661
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posted December 29, 2009 12:20 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 29 Dec 2009 20:22
If it were a Busa you could get away with more, I believe.
Stock pistons and rods and over 300 hp in my girlfriend's Turbo Busa. With plenty of race miles on it. The boost controller, good gas, and pulled timing helps it live. I still worry about it popping, though.
So, the platform is definitely a consideration as well.
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1badzx12r
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posted December 29, 2009 12:56 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 29 Dec 2009 21:04
quote:
and pulled timing helps it live.
pull timing helps but then most people add more boost to make-up the lost hp from timing removal.. more boost = more heat . i got away with 297hp @10lbs on stock pistons and stock timing on my zx14 for a long time .. but a recent fuel pump problem took me out in no time .. passing an 18 wheeler on the highway .. thats how fast it fried
but i have pulled timing and 8 degrees would kill murder hp on my bike (test purpose) ..wanted to know what the max i could pull before i could feel it lose power .. -4 was not bad from 10 to15hp lost on a dyno run session test .. i use a EFIR to move timing ..
i also had a 2lb boost creep for an instance .. it would spike and then level off to 10 flat
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01smokes
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posted December 29, 2009 01:17 PM
quote:
quote:
and pulled timing helps it live.
pull timing helps but then most people add more boost to make-up the lost hp from timing removal.. more boost = more heat . i got away with 297hp @10lbs on stock pistons and stock timing on my zx14 for a long time .. but a recent fuel pump problem took me out in no time .. passing an 18 wheeler on the highway .. thats how fast it fried
but i have pulled timing and 8 degrees would kill murder hp on my bike (test purpose) ..wanted to know what the max i could pull before i could feel it lose power .. -4 was not bad from 10 to15hp lost on a dyno run session test .. i use a EFIR to move timing ..
i also had a 2lb boost creep for an instance .. it would spike and then level off to 10 flat
What kit do you have? and what pump were you runnin when it took out your motor?
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Email, artvgl@yahoo.com
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1badzx12r
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posted December 29, 2009 01:29 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 29 Dec 2009 21:31
cycle-logic with a bosch intank fuel pump.. i didn't want an external pump due to my bike being a streetbike and would have the low fuel flashing all the time .. and charging issues due to more amps for a differant pump.. and what happen to the pump after 2+ years is.. the pump has 3 plugs on the top like freeze plugs but tiny things.. 1 of the plugs pop out and it drop fuel pressure from 100lbs to 70lbs at WOT. By the time i seen the a/f at it normal12.2 go to 15.1 to 16.3 and reacted.. it was to late .. it (pop) happen that fast ..
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smokinZX14
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posted December 29, 2009 01:37 PM
I'm making another thread for this but i'll put the numbers here also ''
Wrongs way 1530 motor ... Crank and pistons , stock rods , stock head and cams ..Home made zx12 pipe to fit a zx14 .. 197 HP and 121 TQ ...This was done on my dyno that my bike mades 171 hp and 100 tq with my fat race map (12.85 to 12.90 ) ... Roys map was fatter at 12.30 to 12.60 , we left it fat because he will be running the mile on the 4th here in FL .. 26 HP gain with the 1530 kit and 21 TQ ... The bike at 4000 RPMs has close to what my zx14 has at 7800 RPMs...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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wrongway
Pro
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posted December 29, 2009 02:09 PM
quote:
I'm making another thread for this but i'll put the numbers here also ''
Wrongs way 1530 motor ... Crank and pistons , stock rods , stock head and cams ..Home made zx12 pipe to fit a zx14 .. 197 HP and 121 TQ ...This was done on my dyno that my bike mades 171 hp and 100 tq with my fat race map (12.85 to 12.90 ) ... Roys map was fatter at 12.30 to 12.60 , we left it fat because he will be running the mile on the 4th here in FL .. 26 HP gain with the 1530 kit and 21 TQ ... The bike at 4000 RPMs has close to what my zx14 has at 7800 RPMs...
I did put rods in because of the wrist pin galling i saw when I tore down the melted motor..
but the bike was setup the way I ride it ,, air filter in place , 15-40 weight oil , etc .
Roy
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wrongway
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posted December 29, 2009 02:19 PM
cost for stroker and boring = $2200 dollars, hp gain was 17% , tests were done at the same dyno.
stock motor dynoed 168 , stroker was 197.
Heads and cams would cost the same , but I need to see how much power they can make..
Roy
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Shane661
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posted December 29, 2009 02:20 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 29 Dec 2009 22:22
You dyno'd the same bike with stock motor and 12R exhaust on smokin's dyno?
Or do you mean compared to a bone stock 14 on E85?
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smokinZX14
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posted December 29, 2009 02:38 PM
quote:
You dyno'd the same bike with stock motor and 12R exhaust on smokin's dyno?
Or do you mean compared to a bone stock 14 on E85?
I compaired it to my zx14 on pump gas 171 HP 100 TQ Vs 197 121 ..My zx14 is piped and tuned and has run high 8s .. Wrongways other bike just has slipons and tune ...Like i said Roys bike made almost as much TQ at 4000 as mine at 7800 .. Roys bike has to be a hoot to ride with all that extra low end TQ ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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wrongway
Pro
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posted December 29, 2009 02:49 PM
Edited By: wrongway on 29 Dec 2009 22:51
quote:
You dyno'd the same bike with stock motor and 12R exhaust on smokin's dyno?
Or do you mean compared to a bone stock 14 on E85?
stock 07 with slipons and e85 = 168 hp ( 163 with gas )
1530 with homemade ex and e85 = 197
Lee was comparing to his bike with race exhaust and gas
I was comparing my 2 bikes
Roy
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Shane661
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posted December 29, 2009 02:58 PM
Ok, so it looks like, with equal gas and exhaust - about 20 hp? I'm figuring about +6 added for good fuel in Lee's bike.
I'd really like to see the torque curve, I'm sure it's a stump puller!
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wrongway
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posted December 29, 2009 03:15 PM
quote:
Ok, so it looks like, with equal gas and exhaust - about 20 hp? I'm figuring about +6 added for good fuel in Lee's bike.
I'd really like to see the torque curve, I'm sure it's a stump puller!
I dont know ,,, his exhaust is better than my $20 pipe . I did not test the 1530 with a really good exhaust . I saved the $1000 bucks and stroked the motor :-)
Roy
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smokinZX14
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posted December 29, 2009 06:17 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 30 Dec 2009 02:18
I'm going to weight in here...I should keep my trap shut but oh well .
Turbo .. Well i have had a few of them over the last 35 years . They make great power and do it with a pretty low cost as long as you keep it to lower boost levels ..Higher boost levels get ready to spend more money making the cost very high ..You have to stay on top of things, your tune up has to be spot on...I find a turbo very hard to ride fast , i'm talking about drag racing here and not LSR or street riding ..Problem is no boost off the line, a turbo motor is somewhat lazy off boost making it hard to 60 foot like an all motor bike ..Slider clutches and boost controlls can fix that problem but the cost goes up again ..The use of a slider clutch means no more street riding ..I do rate the fun factor very high with a turbo ..
I'm going to put these all together ..Big bore , stroker , head work and cams ..I really like all motor bikes .. I call them stealth bombers because they never see it coming .. The downside cost is higher .. If you are a weekly racer you need to stay on top of this type of motor ....With higher compression comes faster bearing wear than a stocker .. Rings will not last as long either ..High lift cams take a toll on Valve spring pressure so you need to check the springs after so many runs .. A yearly tear down and check should be on you list of thinks to do ...Upside you have power when you want it and for me it's easier to ride fast drag racing..Upside you can tell everyone it's just a stocker..
N20, spray , bottle , liquid gun power , squeeze ... Call it what you want because it doesn't change the fact that it's cheap and it works .. A 30 shot like i ran on mine is cheap , fast and some what safe in a zx14 .. You start adding more than a 50 shot you will need valve springs to be safe .. More than 50 you will be looking at spray bars and wet kits ,controllers , window switchs and the list goes on ...You can put 2 grand plus in a big wet kit .At some level your going to need pistons that will handle big spray..It's some what like a turbo because to use it out of the hole you will need a controller but the upside is off the spray the bike runs nomal..Down side is everyone will see it , the bottles go empty and needs refills ..As with the turbo you will need a good map, a good safe map ...You will need a motor map and spray map ....Good fuel is a must ...C16 or Q16 if you are going to run a big shot .. Pump 93 is fine for a 30 shot ...Fun factory is high but like any power adder you will want more after a while ..
I'm like most of you in that i don't know what is the best pick between the 3 listed .. They all have draw backs and depending on how fast you want to go the cost can become very high ...No matter how you slice it speed cost ... Do it wrong and it will really cost you ..
I would say pick any of the 3 listed that feels right for your needs....
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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posted December 29, 2009 06:23 PM
you forgot 1 smokin .. battery power and electric motor ..
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smokinZX14
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posted December 29, 2009 06:32 PM
quote:
you forgot 1 smokin .. battery power and electric motor ..
lol ... 
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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scotty
Parking Attendant
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posted December 30, 2009 03:58 PM
Well said Smokin.
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