Y2KZX12R

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posted December 28, 2009 06:18 AM
One thing I read in this thread I want to comment on, the head gasket issues with bored cylinders...
When using MLS head gaskets you need to have a FLAT surface. MLS head gaskets are designed to "float" the head. During warm up and cool down the head and bores heat up at different rates. Under heavy load they also have a great degree of temp differential.
The GM LS-x engines also use this MLS style head gaskets and head gasket reliability has improved dramatically vs the composite gaskets that the traditional SBC used. You will notice that engines that use MLS head gaskets have thinner reduced shank head bolts. This is to keep the clamping force more even and consistent during all operating conditions.
So with that said, MLS head gaskets need much smoother surfaces to function properly.
I recommend lapping the heads deck surface and removing the cutter marks from the resurfacer. This also makes the surface flatter. Also, and this is VERY important and missed by almost all builders, the block needs to be just as flat.
The problem is that the block material between the cylinders gets hotter than the rest of the bore because these are Siamese bores. When the aluminum cools it shrinks more than the material around the rest of the bores. This is why when you put your straight edge ( I hope you all have one of those) across the bores you will see a shrinkage and thus a gap at the adjoining bores. You need to lap the block deck surface or the clamping force between the bores will be less than the rest of the deck surface.
From what I have seen, the shrinkage usually stabilizes on a seasoned block once its lapped properly. but if the block is subjected to elevated temps like a turbo or nitrous at some point in the future then rechecking is a good idea and re lap the block if needed.
This should cure any sealing issues. We make our own hand lapping plates here and they weigh about 15 pounds and are precision ground to be perfectly flat. they have two handles to make them easy to use. We sell them to other shops, if you would like one. I don't know of anyone else making or selling them.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Halvefast

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posted December 28, 2009 07:49 AM
Can you give us a price on the lapping blocks Jim?
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Y2KZX12R

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posted December 28, 2009 10:31 AM
They are $300. Sounds like a lot but they cost us about $240 to make with materials and machining time.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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wrongway
Pro
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posted December 28, 2009 07:49 PM
would the throttle bodies need to be bored ? or is 44 mm big enough ?
Roy
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Y2KZX12R

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posted December 29, 2009 07:39 PM
44's are too small to make the best peak power with. 46's are ok but 48's would be best for big peak power numbers on a 1500cc+ zx14 engine.
Its really about thetotal port taper not just the added raw cfm number. Taper is good for peak power.
I would at least thin the shafts on the 44's.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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ZXkid
Parking Attendant
Got Nitrous
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posted December 29, 2009 07:50 PM
OK all we need NOW is a well developed ZX-10R cylinder head like your famed 2007 GSXR1000 cylinder head to make the playing field even. Please help us ZX10 owners out if ya can.
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Naturally Aspirated below.
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wrongway
Pro
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posted December 29, 2009 09:21 PM
Edited By: wrongway on 30 Dec 2009 05:21
quote: 44's are too small to make the best peak power with. 46's are ok but 48's would be best for big peak power numbers on a 1500cc+ zx14 engine.
Its really about thetotal port taper not just the added raw cfm number. Taper is good for peak power.
I would at least thin the shafts on the 44's.
I bored out my throttle bodies to 46 mm , I am not sure I could go to 48 mm...it is geting pretty thin
Roy
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WRECKSHOP

Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted December 29, 2009 10:33 PM
I was thinking more like 47mm throttle bodies....
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serius blk

Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted December 30, 2009 09:23 AM
im trying to find someone to due the boring of the tb that will do a good job on them. And wont charge u out the ass.
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KZScott

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posted December 30, 2009 11:26 AM
Edited By: KZScott on 30 Dec 2009 23:21
Harry(northernkaw) is doing 46s now isnt he?
Jim, do you do bored TBs?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R

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posted December 30, 2009 04:18 PM
quote: Harry(northernkaw) is doing 46s now isnt he?
Jim, do you do bored TBs?
Scott, I have the tooling to do them. But its not something I have time to do right now.
We can do zx10 heads. I'm waiting on some feed back on an unconventional new zx10 design. As soon as I know more I'll post.
We can also do conventional CNC porting on the zx10 heads.
Here's a quick list of the CNC ported heads we do. There are several variants of many of them also.
zx10 (old school)
zx10 04-09
zx-11
zrx-1100
zrx1200
zx12
zx14
gsxr 1k
busa
xs-650 yamaha
And about 30 automotive V8 heads as well as automotive inline 4 cyl etc.
Actually we design and develop about one new cylinder head every week. Its a relentless pace. Its a good damn thing I like what I do.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott

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posted December 30, 2009 05:26 PM
Jim if you have some spare time, could you pm or email
(s_u_fire@hotmail.com) me some info on the gsxr 1k head package? buddy of mine has an 01 looking to take out a stock 14 at the strip
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R

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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted January 06, 2010 04:43 AM
Scott, have him give me a call I can go over the different options based on what his combo is etc. 860 274 0631 or email me at JGilnack@competitioncnc.com
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted January 06, 2010 05:43 AM
Jim , when would be a good time to call you about the 14 head ?
Roy
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billeason
Zone Head
Posts: 711
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posted January 06, 2010 05:57 AM
Edited By: billeason on 6 Jan 2010 14:03
quote: One thing I read in this thread I want to comment on, the head gasket issues with bored cylinders...
When using MLS head gaskets you need to have a FLAT surface. MLS head gaskets are designed to "float" the head. During warm up and cool down the head and bores heat up at different rates. Under heavy load they also have a great degree of temp differential.
The GM LS-x engines also use this MLS style head gaskets and head gasket reliability has improved dramatically vs the composite gaskets that the traditional SBC used. You will notice that engines that use MLS head gaskets have thinner reduced shank head bolts. This is to keep the clamping force more even and consistent during all operating conditions.
So with that said, MLS head gaskets need much smoother surfaces to function properly.
I recommend lapping the heads deck surface and removing the cutter marks from the resurfacer. This also makes the surface flatter. Also, and this is VERY important and missed by almost all builders, the block needs to be just as flat.
The problem is that the block material between the cylinders gets hotter than the rest of the bore because these are Siamese bores. When the aluminum cools it shrinks more than the material around the rest of the bores. This is why when you put your straight edge ( I hope you all have one of those) across the bores you will see a shrinkage and thus a gap at the adjoining bores. You need to lap the block deck surface or the clamping force between the bores will be less than the rest of the deck surface.
From what I have seen, the shrinkage usually stabilizes on a seasoned block once its lapped properly. but if the block is subjected to elevated temps like a turbo or nitrous at some point in the future then rechecking is a good idea and re lap the block if needed.
This should cure any sealing issues. We make our own hand lapping plates here and they weigh about 15 pounds and are precision ground to be perfectly flat. they have two handles to make them easy to use. We sell them to other shops, if you would like one. I don't know of anyone else making or selling them.
I would like to know more about them Y2 . LMK what i need to get started...................Bill
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bill eason
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Y2KZX12R

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posted January 07, 2010 03:14 AM
Roy, 9-5 m-f 9-12 on sat.
I have a seperate line from the rest of the shop, so if I dont answer leave a message, I'm out in the shop and the noise from the dyno and all the machines running gets quite loud during the day with 9 guys.
Bill just put in a new waste oil furnace and thats loud now and adds to the noise.
Bill, give me a shout on the lapping plate. 860-274-0631 we have one left and are working on a new batch. I think Bill makes them 5 at a time.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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billeason
Zone Head
Posts: 711
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posted January 07, 2010 06:17 AM
quote: Roy, 9-5 m-f 9-12 on sat.
I have a seperate line from the rest of the shop, so if I dont answer leave a message, I'm out in the shop and the noise from the dyno and all the machines running gets quite loud during the day with 9 guys.
Bill just put in a new waste oil furnace and thats loud now and adds to the noise.
Bill, give me a shout on the lapping plate. 860-274-0631 we have one left and are working on a new batch. I think Bill makes them 5 at a time.
Thanks Y2k I will give you a call later ........
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bill eason
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ZX14Mike
Zone Head
Posts: 891
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posted January 10, 2010 06:34 PM
Roy did you have your throtle bodies bored at the same time you did the stroker or before..........if it was done before or after the stroker i'm just curious what kind of difference you noticed,,,,,,,,,,,,also how long have you had the stroker. and what type of difference would you describe that as.........you real happy with it?
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smokinZX14

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posted January 10, 2010 07:38 PM
I was just talking to Roy about this very thing .. Roy said he noticed no power gain from the larger throttle bodys ..I felt that roys small tube zx12 header he is using on his zx14 would most likely cancel out any gain from the larger throttle bodys ..Yes you may be able to put more in but you can't get it out .. He is adding a Brocks sidewinder that has much larger tubes , That may make good use of the larger throttle bodys and in the end he may see bigger gains ..
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Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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KZScott

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posted January 10, 2010 07:54 PM
how big are the tubes?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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BIG BLUE_ZX14

Expert Class
Posts: 374
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posted January 11, 2010 10:42 AM
I'm with Smokin...I dont what to open the case or add nitrious or a turbo. A quality ported head with cam and valve work with a good tune is the way to go.
How does this new CompetitionCNC head differ from the 210+ Carpenter head package? And what about price?
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2012 Blue on Black ZX14R with Go Faster Stuff...
2007 Blue ZX14 Gone...
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NINJA12
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Posts: 3310
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posted January 14, 2010 09:05 AM
quote:
How does this new CompetitionCNC head differ from the 210+ Carpenter head package? And what about price?
Carpenter is
$3,700 head package 210 hp
$4300 with big cams and tappet mod. 215 hp
$6,100 with the 1415 kit. 220 hp.
prices are drive in drive out tuned.
Anyone have hp gains for a stock head clean up shaved 10 thousandth.
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted January 14, 2010 04:05 PM
quote: Roy did you have your throtle bodies bored at the same time you did the stroker or before..........if it was done before or after the stroker i'm just curious what kind of difference you noticed,,,,,,,,,,,,also how long have you had the stroker. and what type of difference would you describe that as.........you real happy with it?
I had bored throttle bodies year before last. I did not dyno the bike, but did not see an increase in mph in the quarter or mile , so I dont think there was much or any difference .
The stroker put the bike at the same power level I had with a 30 shot of nitrous... but i have the power at 4k and up, all the time ... really wheelies bad with stock wheelbase.
I built the stroker last july , put 500 miles on the street breaking it in. Since then I have done 20 or more land speed runs , 40 or 50 passes at the dragstrip, and a dozen runs on the dyno last month. Compression and leakdown still look good. The motor seems to be holding up ok.
I am really happy with the motor , but it may be a bit much for riding to work...
Roy
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ZX14Mike
Zone Head
Posts: 891
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posted January 15, 2010 06:22 PM
Roy, did you remove the counterbalancers or have the crank lightened when you built your stroker...........also any differeces or problems with starting or overheating at all?
Gotta confess this thread has really peaked my curiosity.
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted January 16, 2010 04:36 AM
counter balancers were removed
I put in a second battery to solve starting problems
It did not have overheating problems last summer , but I was not in stop & go traffic.
Roy
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