smokinZX14
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posted December 26, 2009 06:15 PM
 Edited By: smokinZX14 on 27 Dec 2009 02:27
quote:
smokin the subject is hp vs money . and no matter how it chops that spray is the best bang for the buck !!!!!!!!
I would totaly agree with that ...But i like all motor so the head and cams are the way to go for me ... Later i will add drop in pistons and a 4 mm crank .. There are lots of guy here that will never own a tubro or even spray over a 30 or 40 shot ... For these guys a ported head and cams may be the way for them to go ..
By the way go back and read Y2 first post , his head is more than just a polish job ..A lot of work went into making that head work ... His flow numbers if in fact are true then the head flows better than the Busa ported head .. This should be big news to guys that race zx14s but this seems to have fallen on deaf ears .. How strange ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
  
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1badzx12r
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posted December 26, 2009 06:48 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 27 Dec 2009 02:51
quote:
quote:
. This should be big news to guys that race zx14s but this seems to have fallen on deaf ears .. How strange ..
no it didn't fall on deaf ears .. i've got several friends that race the fame 07 gixxer head.. i know what happens with cams and porting for that engine.. just race track results i've seen in short a stock motor gixxerr with ported head and cams out mph a 3mil stroker gixxer by 2 mph .. they also have the cylinder to cases mated like the zx14 .. and both those bikes keep popping head gaskets
what falls on deaf ears is the zx14 cost to upgrade pistons .. you just can't drop pistons into a zx14 .. well you can but they won't last long due to ring to deck height .. and what happens is it eats the top ring land up to the deck .. i've got several pistons in hand to show you.. just send me your email and i'll send you some pics .. that's what happens when you create hp on turbo zx14's .. and i'm sure that most guys that race zx14's don't have deep pockets like the pro racers
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1badzx12r
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posted December 26, 2009 06:56 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 27 Dec 2009 03:00
quote:
quote:
quote:
I quote]
It is silly to buy stock bore pistons. If you are going to buy pistons buy bigger ones. Unless you are planning on running BIG nitrous or a lot of boost..
Especially with the amount of work it takes to put pistons in a ZX-14.
unless you put (shorter) rods in for that big noz or boost .. it silly to buy any piston on the market to run with stock rods .. the good news is you can replace pistons with motor in frame
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smokinZX14
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posted December 26, 2009 07:04 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 27 Dec 2009 03:05
quote:
quote:
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. This should be big news to guys that race zx14s but this seems to have fallen on deaf ears .. How strange ..
no it didn't fall on deaf ears .. i've got several friends that race the fame 07 gixxer head.. i know what happens with cams and porting for that engine.. just race track results i've seen in short a stock motor gixxerr with ported head and cams out mph a 3mil stroker gixxer by 2 mph .. they also have the cylinder to cases mated like the zx14 .. and both those bikes keep popping head gaskets
what falls on deaf ears is the zx14 cost to upgrade pistons .. you just can't drop pistons into a zx14 .. well you can but they won't last long due to ring to deck height .. and what happens is it eats the top ring land up to the deck .. i've got several pistons in hand to show you.. just send me your email and i'll send you some pics .. that's what happens when you create hp on turbo zx14's .. and i'm sure that most guys that race zx14's don't have deep pockets like the pro racers
Again we are NOT talking about drop in pistons in a turbo bike .. You can't compair what you are doing to what i'm doing ..I know more than a few zx14 with drop in STD bore pistons that spray a pretty big shots and have zero problem with the pistons .. Valve springs and retainers problems YES but not pistons ..Popping head gaskets on a Gixxer ? We dont have gixxers ...
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Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Bryan Snyder
Parking Attendant
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posted December 26, 2009 07:20 PM
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I also don't know of any stroker motors that are as reliable as stock.
So a Busa motor that has more stroke stock than a zx14 stock is not reliable ..
I assume you are talking about a weld up crank to add your additional stroke...... Since I don't know of any billet cranks for ZX-14s.
This is not the same as an oem stock stroke crank.
If you are going to buy a welded up stroker crank....... I would urge you to get it done by Marine.
Maybe if we are lucky Kawasaki will bump up the displacement with more stroke in the next generation ZX-14. It would also be nice if they would design the head more like a GSXR 1000 or Busa and put bigger buckets in it. Thanks in advance Kawasaki.
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1badzx12r
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posted December 26, 2009 07:21 PM
ok smokin you know it all .. more power to you ..
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smokinZX14
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posted December 26, 2009 07:22 PM
This thread is getting way of the track and i'm done with the back and forth crap .. Do your motors your way and i'll do mine my way .. I'll try one of his heads and see what happens but since you guys don't care and would rather fight about pistons and cranks i'll keep the out come to myself ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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posted December 26, 2009 07:31 PM
quote:
.. Do your motors your way and i'll do mine my way .. i'll keep the out come to myself ..
and that is what i have done.. because i can't find anything other than stock parts to build with cause the aftermarket crap blows and cost 4 time as much .. but please do start building something ..
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smokinZX14
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posted December 26, 2009 07:38 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I also don't know of any stroker motors that are as reliable as stock.
So a Busa motor that has more stroke stock than a zx14 stock is not reliable ..
I assume you are talking about a weld up crank to add your additional stroke...... Since I don't know of any billet cranks for ZX-14s.
This is not the same as an oem stock stroke crank.
If you are going to buy a welded up stroker crank....... I would urge you to get it done by Marine.
Maybe if we are lucky Kawasaki will bump up the displacement with more stroke in the next generation ZX-14. It would also be nice if they would design the head more like a GSXR 1000 or Busa and put bigger buckets in it. Thanks in advance Kawasaki.
Marine Crank would be the only crank i would ever think of using . Scat cranks talked of making a billet crank a while back but i have heard nothing more about it ... I fully agree a billet crank would be the best but we have to use what we have ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Bryan Snyder
Parking Attendant
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posted December 26, 2009 08:53 PM
I am very anxious to try one of Jim's new heads.
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NINJA12
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posted December 26, 2009 09:26 PM
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quote:
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I wouldn't put stock bore pistons in anything.
Care to post a little more info Byran .. I'll take a stroker over a bore job anyday , like i said i rather keep the heat in the cylinder and not put it into the coolant with a 2 mm overbore ..If this were a Busa i'd say bore it to death because jugs are cheap and you can get them at Micky Ds with your happy meal ..
It is silly to buy stock bore pistons. If you are going to buy pistons buy bigger ones. Unless you are planning on running BIG nitrous or a lot of boost..
Especially with the amount of work it takes to put pistons in a ZX-14.
that's what i was trying to say.
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Compton
Zone Head
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posted December 27, 2009 12:44 AM
smokin u try any other cams?
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b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
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rtbain
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posted December 27, 2009 06:44 AM
My .02. The engine is designed for mile and lsr. I am sure it has other applications. The parameters for the build were the most bang for the buck with longevity as a correcting factor. In my old roadracing days it was easy to purchase parts from a reputable supplier and bolt them on for power gains. In modern times extracting more power from stock engines is very tricky once you get past the pipe and fuel management stage.
The rules for the build, build it fast, build it to last. I only have one shot as building the base motor because funds are limited. My thought process.
Spray it. The pros and cons have already been discussed so I won’t bore you with details. To make a long lived mile/lsr engine you have to go into the bottom end. Many gadgets have to be added to make it work.
Turbo. Again the pros and cons are well known. And to make it last you have to beef up the bottom. Many gadgets have to be added to make it work.
So it’s naturally aspirated. A solid bottom end with a 2mm over bore and Carrillo rods. No stroker because of the longevity rule. Karl has done a great job with his stroker engine but buys pistons by the case, definitely out of my league.
Keeping it simple allows for less tuning, more seat time which as a newbie I desperately need. I learned a long time ago that having many control variables makes finding a problem complex. I just want to worry about AFR and monitor EGT at the track.
The head is the subject of this discussion and I went with the best guy I could find. There was some debate over the 1mm over size valves but I knew when to shut up and listen to someone who knew a great deal more than me.
On paper the head looks very promising. My ZX in its current state of tune made 160BHP (corrected) on a Factory Pro dyno. Adding fifteen percent that would translate into about 185 on a Dyno Jet unit.
The engine should be back together in early January and broken in by mid January ready for testing. I would like to give testing in steps to prove each modification but the budget has already been sucked dry by the build. Final adjustments will include an ignition module so the numbers will be skewed somewhat. Of course if anyone is willing to pony up for the extra dyno time and build costs I will be happy to oblige.
Final numbers will be posted and sent to Jim for evaluation. Jim has been hugely helpful in building this head. I also wish to thank Andy at Metric Motorcycles and Karl for their input.
The dyno will be the final judge.
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Randy
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1badzx12r
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posted December 27, 2009 08:15 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 27 Dec 2009 16:17
quote:
So it’s naturally aspirated. A solid bottom end with a 2mm over bore and Carrillo rods. No stroker because of the longevity rule. Karl has done a great job with his stroker engine but buys pistons by the case, definitely out of my league.
WHAT .. THAT CAN'T BE ONLY US TURBO GUYS HAVE THAT PROBLEM ...from what i was told
replacing a few pistons isn't bad ..its when a ring gets into the bore and eat nicosil up on a zx14 then its a issue
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smokinZX14
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posted December 27, 2009 01:25 PM
quote:
quote:
So it’s naturally aspirated. A solid bottom end with a 2mm over bore and Carrillo rods. No stroker because of the longevity rule. Karl has done a great job with his stroker engine but buys pistons by the case, definitely out of my league.
WHAT .. THAT CAN'T BE ONLY US TURBO GUYS HAVE THAT PROBLEM ...from what i was told
replacing a few pistons isn't bad ..its when a ring gets into the bore and eat nicosil up on a zx14 then its a issue
Turbos and N20 do eat pistons if tuned wrong and it doesn't matter what brand piston you use if the tune is wrong ..
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Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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posted December 27, 2009 02:36 PM
Smokin get you glasses cause its says N/A up there.. you know Naturally Aspirated.
And of course with a bad tune you eat pistons ..but it would help to have a decent piston to start with so you can build enough hp to have a bad tune ..geez smokin ur killing me ..
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rtbain
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posted December 27, 2009 02:49 PM
I believe Karl's stroker is eating pistons because he revs it like a F1 engine. His state of tune is so far beyond mine it’s not a fair comparison. I think his piston speed approaches the speed of light. Besides stroking the engine would add significantly to the cost of the build.
On turbo or spray my understanding is that combustion temperatures soar. Added heat may equate to more power but it also shortens the life of the engine. Yes there are ways around this, water or methanol injection comes to mind. But that adds complexity and cost.
But please remember this is not a theoretical exercise. It’s a real world build on a limited budget.
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Randy
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smokinZX14
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posted December 27, 2009 03:10 PM
quote:
Smokin get you glasses cause its says N/A up there.. you know Naturally Aspirated.
And of course with a bad tune you eat pistons ..but it would help to have a decent piston to start with so you can build enough hp to have a bad tune ..geez smokin ur killing me ..
I can read just fine ..I'm talking about your bike .. What you are on your 7th or 8th motor ? Funny Coby and Chris use the same aftermark pistons and they run fine ..Hell man i ran stock pistons in Jesse turbo at 15 psi and NEVER hurt the motor ...But still you came on here and tell me how to build a motor ....Very Funny ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
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posted December 27, 2009 03:17 PM
Again guys this thread is about Y2ks new big valve head .. Keep on track.... One damn thing i now for sure without a good head you will be limited on your HP output ..The head is the key part to making big power ..ASK any engine builder and he will tell you the same thing .. And for sure a head is NOT going to take out your pistons , it's a simple bolt on that will not cause your motor any harm ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
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posted December 27, 2009 03:32 PM
quote:
smokin u try any other cams?
I don't think so .. The cost of swapping cams to test would be to much for me .. I will go with the custom grind that Jim has offered .. Jim knows the flow numbers and has made a cam to fit his Big Valve head ...Plus Jim cams can be used with the stock Buckets .. Larger cams need the buckets replaced with the larger busa bucket ..More $$$$ on my allready tight budget ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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posted December 27, 2009 05:01 PM
quote:
quote:
Smokin get you glasses cause its says N/A up there.. you know Naturally Aspirated.
And of course with a bad tune you eat pistons ..but it would help to have a decent piston to start with so you can build enough hp to have a bad tune ..geez smokin ur killing me ..
I can read just fine ..I'm talking about your bike .. What you are on your 7th or 8th motor ? Funny Coby and Chris use the same aftermark pistons and they run fine ..Hell man i ran stock pistons in Jesse turbo at 15 psi and NEVER hurt the motor ...But still you came on here and tell me how to build a motor ....Very Funny ..
i don't think running a turbo for FEW months on jesse's bike makes you an expert on turbos
and no i haven't gone thru 8 motors just 6 pistons and 2 set of cases over 2 years with hundreds of passes and 30k miles .. and that don't make me an expert either but as i keep saying this is not about me .and i never told you about how to build a motor .. but just stating where an issue is .. but if you want to be an ass ..why don't you build something and go race with the big boys .. step-up and go win something..
oh and 1 them set of cases and 2 pistons were done by a turbo guy and tuned by a dyno tuner in your area .. so those were not my doing since i paid somebody whom knew more than me to do it .. just for you info
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smokinZX14
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posted December 27, 2009 07:50 PM
quote:
quote:
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Smokin get you glasses cause its says N/A up there.. you know Naturally Aspirated.
And of course with a bad tune you eat pistons ..but it would help to have a decent piston to start with so you can build enough hp to have a bad tune ..geez smokin ur killing me ..
I can read just fine ..I'm talking about your bike .. What you are on your 7th or 8th motor ? Funny Coby and Chris use the same aftermark pistons and they run fine ..Hell man i ran stock pistons in Jesse turbo at 15 psi and NEVER hurt the motor ...But still you came on here and tell me how to build a motor ....Very Funny ..
i don't think running a turbo for FEW months on jesse's bike makes you an expert on turbos
and no i haven't gone thru 8 motors just 6 pistons and 2 set of cases over 2 years with hundreds of passes and 30k miles .. and that don't make me an expert either but as i keep saying this is not about me .and i never told you about how to build a motor .. but just stating where an issue is .. but if you want to be an ass ..why don't you build something and go race with the big boys .. step-up and go win something..
oh and 1 them set of cases and 2 pistons were done by a turbo guy and tuned by a dyno tuner in your area .. so those were not my doing since i paid somebody whom knew more than me to do it .. just for you info
 Ok let's get back to the ported head.. 
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
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Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Compton
Zone Head
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posted December 27, 2009 09:38 PM
Edited By: Compton on 28 Dec 2009 05:38
and for a billet zx14 crank, marine has done em before.
im assuming this was for muzzys pro stock bike.
____________
b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 28, 2009 12:39 AM
Cool thread!
I'm hoping Jim has cracked the nut of making the 14 head flow at high rpm.
Busas are still totally kicking Kawasaki ass in LSR, (3 years after 14 was introduced), we want that to change.
Go - Jim & Randy - GO!!!!!!!
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1badzx12r
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posted December 28, 2009 05:51 AM
quote:
and for a billet zx14 crank, marine has done em before.
im assuming this was for muzzys pro stock bike.
purdy
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