gilberjj
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posted September 25, 2009 01:53 PM
e85 tuning help
I'm going to be converting my bike to e85. The tuner I'll be using suggests getting a timing commander along with my pciii to use e85 because he says it burns much slower.
"I would recomend a timing commander also. That will make or break the drivability. The E85 creates so much less energy, you have to change the timing and add lots of fuel. I work out of kirkland right now. With the ammount of noise created from the dyno, it might be best to come up here. The whole tuning process only takes an hour."
and...
"I would highly recomend the timing commander. It will help everything. I think I can get them for $225 or so. Im not sure how much power it will give you but the stock timing map was designed for a burn rate of 92 octane on what ever compression ratio and RPM's you bike is running. When you throw a totally different type of fuel and amount of fuel in to the cylinders, the burn speed is going to change."
Since the burn time will be constant, would I be able to get away with just throwing on a muzzy timing rotor? Or do you think I should really get a timing commander? Or should I just stick with the stock timing map? Also, I'll be running nitrous eventually. Wouldn't I want a somewhat conservative timing map for nitrous anyways?
  
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Shane661
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posted September 25, 2009 01:59 PM
How do you feel about E85 being electrically conductive, paired with the exposed wires of your fuel pump? That is kind of a hurdle for me just throwing it in the tank.
Just curious.
I would get an ignition module if you want to tune it properly.
Shane
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gilberjj
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posted September 25, 2009 02:07 PM
hmmmmmmm
thanks shane.
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wrongway
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posted September 25, 2009 07:01 PM
quote:
How do you feel about E85 being electrically conductive, paired with the exposed wires of your fuel pump? That is kind of a hurdle for me just throwing it in the tank.
Just curious.
I would get an ignition module if you want to tune it properly.
Shane
maybe the 15% gasoline is enough of an insulator... I have E85 in the stock bike and race bike. I have gone thru at least 5 full tanks of E85 with no issue. Still riding it to work everyday that i can. I did an oil change after a coulple hundred miles just to be sure there was no bad contamination , and everything looked fine.
I am not sure that an ignition module is needed... I have seen pretty good results with the stock setup. I would like to dyno the bikes just to see what they are making compared to gas.
here is a run with stock timing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGkLxSfVaQ4&feature=channel_page
And it didnt explode the gas tank or anything :-)
Roy
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Shane661
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posted September 26, 2009 05:09 AM
I'm pretty sure you could get by without an ignition module. Of course, it wouldn't be the optimum setup...but I guess that is not the goal for everyone.
I'm not saying that the tank would explode. I'm not sure what could happen? I know that it is generally not a good idea to have non-insulated electrical components submerged in conductive fluid.
I'd say, try it if you want. Just be as informed as possible. One person's partial success may be another person's failure. After all, not every Ford Pinto burst into flames, right? 
I'm considering a switch to E85 this winter. But if I do so I am going to make changes to the fuel system at the same time.
Shane
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gilberjj
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posted September 27, 2009 08:29 AM
So, the biggest question is how much power will e85 really make over pump? I can pay $150 for a tune, but then I would need to also get a larger pump and injectors if I wanted to spray on top of using e85 as fuel.
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wrongway
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posted September 27, 2009 09:09 AM
i guess it depends on how much you spray ... I have soayed the1530 motor running e85
Roy
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gilberjj
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posted September 27, 2009 09:47 AM
I don't see how the stock fuel system can keep up........ That's great news though. What is the stock fuel system rated for on race gas?
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wrongway
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posted September 27, 2009 12:31 PM
I had heard 300 hp .... I am not sure if that number was from '06-'07 or '08-'09.
I had also hear that the '08-'09 had larger injectors.
Roy
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Shane661
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posted September 27, 2009 12:36 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 27 Sep 2009 20:39
But figuring 30% or so more fuel requirement for E85 would seem to indicate well under that hp capability when using the alternative fuel....right? It would seem comfortably safe for naturally aspirated operation...but somewhat iffy on the spray?
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gilberjj
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posted September 27, 2009 12:56 PM
quote:
But figuring 30% or so more fuel requirement for E85 would seem to indicate well under that hp capability when using the alternative fuel....right? It would seem comfortably safe for naturally aspirated operation...but somewhat iffy on the spray?
That's what I was thinking.
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wrongway
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posted September 27, 2009 01:53 PM
if the the stock system can handle 300 hp at the wheel , then that is 70% more than the stock motor requires. if E85 requires 35% - 40% , then there is some room. I did bump up the fuel pressure regulator on the race bike to 70 lbs because of the extra motor size. The street bike still is running at the stock pressure.
Roy
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Shane661
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posted September 27, 2009 02:02 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 27 Sep 2009 22:03
Perhaps my math is off here, but:
If it requires 35% more fuel for equal power with E85, you would seem to be limited to 195 hp worth of fuel from the stock injector/rail and pressure, correct?
300 * .65 = 195
My bike makes 175+ hp SAE on pump fuel. That wouldn't leave much room for spray.
If I am off with my math, let me know. Perhaps there is a different way to figure it?
Shane
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gilberjj
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posted September 27, 2009 02:37 PM
I don't know about 35 percent, but I suppose you should always error on the side of too much fuel. And even if the fuel system is good for 300 wheel, when you run your fuel system at 100% its capacity, you run the risk of going lean. Just my thoughts.
How do you turn up the fuel pressure via regulator? Also, what are the size differences between the 06 and 08 injectors?
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wrongway
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posted September 27, 2009 05:59 PM
quote:
Perhaps my math is off here, but:
If it requires 35% more fuel for equal power with E85, you would seem to be limited to 195 hp worth of fuel from the stock injector/rail and pressure, correct?
300 * .65 = 195
My bike makes 175+ hp SAE on pump fuel. That wouldn't leave much room for spray.
If I am off with my math, let me know. Perhaps there is a different way to figure it?
Shane
yeah , you math is off... 300/1.35 = 222...
And you are assuming that there are no hp gains with E85 and that the flow rates are the same for both fluids.
but the real answer will be the dyno :-)
Roy
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gilberjj
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posted September 27, 2009 07:41 PM
Roy, how do you increase fuel pressure via the stock regulator?
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Shane661
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posted September 28, 2009 03:20 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Sep 2009 11:21
quote:
quote:
Perhaps my math is off here, but:
If it requires 35% more fuel for equal power with E85, you would seem to be limited to 195 hp worth of fuel from the stock injector/rail and pressure, correct?
300 * .65 = 195
My bike makes 175+ hp SAE on pump fuel. That wouldn't leave much room for spray.
If I am off with my math, let me know. Perhaps there is a different way to figure it?
Shane
yeah , you math is off... 300/1.35 = 222...
And you are assuming that there are no hp gains with E85 and that the flow rates are the same for both fluids.
but the real answer will be the dyno :-)
Roy
Thanks for the correction, Roy. 
Nonetheless, it looks a little close for comfort when spraying. As for hp gains with E85, I'm sure it's possible with proper a/f and timing adjustments. But, I'm also sure it is possible to make equal or less hp if you don't tune it right. The real answer is on the track. 
Shane
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Shane661
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posted September 28, 2009 03:34 AM
Roy, are you logging injector duty cycle?
Like I say, I am considering a switch this winter (E85 is a lot cheaper than MR9).
Shane
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wrongway
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posted September 28, 2009 06:30 AM
quote:
Roy, are you logging injector duty cycle?
Like I say, I am considering a switch this winter (E85 is a lot cheaper than MR9).
Shane
no , I cannot logging duty cycle..
Roy
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gilberjj
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posted September 28, 2009 01:23 PM
I thought of an interesting point today. All the references to a max 300 hp are from turbo or nitrous bikes aiming for 11.5:1 a/f ratio. With e85, I'll be aiming for 12.8-13.2:1 a/f ratio. Though it's not that much leaner, that will give me additional fuel when running on motor. From the research I've been doing, the bike should be fine on a 30 shot with the stock fuel system. I'll be talking with some more ppl in the know tonight.
Roy, can you turn up the stock fuel pressure regulator? If so, how?
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wrongway
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posted September 28, 2009 02:14 PM
quote:
Roy, can you turn up the stock fuel pressure regulator? If so, how?
You can remove the regulator from the pump and shim the spring. Some folks have just hit the back side with a hammer ... I have to put a gauge on the pump to verify the pump pressure after I made the adjustment.
I have heard that this is hard on the the pump , so I only modified the pressure on the race bike .
Roy
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LAB3
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posted September 28, 2009 07:00 PM
Edited By: LAB3 on 29 Sep 2009 03:01
Roy I have a 2008 14 pump for my 2007. How thck of a shim for the regulator springr?
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