bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted July 06, 2009 12:23 PM
Resistance at TDC
If anyone remembers a while back when I f-ed up my valve clearance check, I mentioned hitting some resistance at TDC for 1 and 4 before I took the head off. Getting ready to reassemble everything, hopefully this weekend, but that has always been in the back of my mind.
This was with plugs out and cams out, so I was expecting no resistance at all. At the time I thought maybe I was hitting one of the valves I bent but after removing the head it didn't look like that could have been it.
Any ideas on why or what was causing that resistance? Pretty sure it wasn't the cam chain binding. Engine spins freely with the head off. The only other time anyone has been in the motor since the factory was for a bad crank bearing at about 2k miles, now has 16.5k miles on it.
  
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pissear
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posted July 06, 2009 01:59 PM
Are you sure you, "wet-checked" each valve to see no leaks were happening as if a bent valve would hang up so as to be seized or say when the valve does move, there is a locked valve in the guide? There is where it will not turn?
I know you had the cams out, but now was this just some compression being exerted? You thought it would not turn over past compression 1 or 4 TDC?
Funny how the free spin is going on with head on, cams out or did you turn with the bottom of the crank catching a chain folded over the sprocket and there is the engine stop?
No head and it spins free is you had the chain high enough to spin the crank free and not bind the sprocket?
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
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posted July 06, 2009 02:29 PM
Wasn't compression, had all 4 plugs out. Felt more like it was hitting something, not a gradual buildup like compression gives.
Doesn't the crank make 2 revolutions per 1 cam chain revolution? It binded every time 1 and 4 came to TDC, spun it about 4 times before taking the head off.
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pissear
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posted July 06, 2009 09:34 PM
Cam turns twice and the crank once. You had it reversed but you got it.
You more need to install that cam on the head only. Then turn the cam somehow to inspect the shim clearance. If you measured and shimmed a valve 180° out, you should have had a huge gap, never figured you were out 180°; pulled the cam; installed a huge fat shim and now timed it back in and she binds sticking way out there. Did you install a big shim? Larger than normal say?
Did you wet the head? Shoot brake or contact cleaner down each port. Cock the head so the face of the valve is horizontal. This liquid will now cover the whole back of the valve. One leaks like right away, this is the tagged valve that bound at TDC or there about.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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dubious
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posted July 06, 2009 10:23 PM
When i installed my new adjustable cam chain and gears, it kept jumping the intake cam 1 tooth, advancing it. I had to use safety wire to keep it tight enough it couldn't jump.
I am not impressed with the chain, even the new chain doesn't ride down in the bottom of the cog like it seems it should.... kinda like a stretched out old chain on a new set of drive sprokets.
Bill Easson is looking into having a better chain made, the stocker is only a 3 row. 
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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dubious
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posted July 06, 2009 11:50 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 7 Jul 2009 07:52
BTW, the crank makes 2 revolutions for every revolution of the cams
The igniton rotor is twice as big as the sproket behind it, so you can physically see in this pic, that the crank turns 2 times for every cam revolution, as it has been on all 4 strokes I can remember.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Bigbore4
Zone Head
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posted July 07, 2009 01:28 AM
I guess that Ol Pissinmyear went to a different school!!
Maybe he was looking at it upside down or maybe got the cam and crank mixed up?
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pissear
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posted July 07, 2009 10:27 AM
If there are 4 strokes to one revolution, how do you come up with twice the crank turning for one fire stroke?
Workit out.
Dude, You've Been Schooled!
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 11:19 AM
Edited By: dubious on 7 Jul 2009 19:22
out of respect, I will not flame you, I am quite sure there are subjects you know better than I, and I am always willing to learn, in fact I am more than willing, I feel that ignorance and lack of compasssion as well as lack of understanding will be the demise of mankind.
Anyway, I am always looking to squeek out a few more HP, and that quest has kept my mind and ears open.
here is a link for anyone thinking the cams turn twice as fast as the crank in a 4 stroke engine:
Checkout the animation on the right of the page, on the left it counts the strokes for you, the piston will make TDC 2 times for every revolution of the cam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_engine#Valve_train
The crankshaft makes 2 revolutions for every single revolution of the cam., meaning the cam turns half as fast.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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smokinZX14
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posted July 07, 2009 12:14 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 7 Jul 2009 20:24
pissear You hear that ?? Someone just pissed in your ear..Yoked and stroked, sliced and diced, Billy Mays your tiny spot and found you wanting , crying and left for dead..In the words of Robert Duvall " I love the smell of Napom in the morning "
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Bigbore4
Zone Head
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posted July 07, 2009 03:03 PM
Pissear, remenber this if you can.
4 STROKE ie' Intake-compression-power-exhaust.........
4 strokes per power cycle, If you can add, just look at the crank gear, add the number of teeth if you can count, then look at the cam gear, bigger number of teeth, so you might need some help. Add the number of teeth at cam, divide that number by the number of teeth on the crank and it will equal 2. Got it?
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Bigbore4
Zone Head
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posted July 07, 2009 03:04 PM
Pissear, remenber this if you can.
4 STROKE ie' Intake-compression-power-exhaust.........
4 strokes per power cycle, If you can add, just look at the crank gear, add the number of teeth if you can count, then look at the cam gear, bigger number of teeth, so you might need some help. Add the number of teeth at cam, divide that number by the number of teeth on the crank and it will equal 2. Got it?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 07, 2009 04:05 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 8 Jul 2009 00:18
If it does it with the head on and cams out then its most likely piston to head contact. (carbon buildup)
If it does it with the cams in then the chain may have a stretched or kinked spot.
The zx14 chain and tensioner is problematic.
Did the bike ever have a manual tensioner on it?
Did you release the tension on the tensioner before reinstalling it?
If it does it with the cams in...... The intake valves typically will be closest to the pistons at 8-10 degrees ATDC and the exhaust valves 8-10 degrees BTDC. If that's where the resistance is then you may have valve to piston clearance issues.
Do you have weld up cams in the head?
If so, they are most likely bent. Every set of weld-up cams need to be checked for straightness before installing in a head. Every set of hard face welded cams I've ever seen are only straightened to within about .003"-.006" total run-out. At about .004"you will feel resistance start to get quite high. Zx14 cams are weak, as are zx10 cams. They are very thin and warp excessively when hard-face welded compared to Busa or zx12r cams.
Even if your cams are stock you should check them on a set of vblocks.
Straightening them isn't a big deal. Nothing a big hammer and chizzle wont fix. You want them to be less than .001" of total run-out.
After straightening you also need to check the base circle run-out. If it exceeds 1/3 of the lash clearance then the cams need to go back and get reground.
Good luck
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
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posted July 07, 2009 05:46 PM
quote:
If it does it with the head on and cams out then its most likely piston to head contact. (carbon buildup)
That's when I felt it so hopefully that's it. Got a good bit of carbon off the head and pistons so we'll see on reassembly. Thanks!
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pissear
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posted July 07, 2009 06:47 PM
How many crank rotations equal = Intake - Compression - Power - Exhaust? Did it take 2 crank revolutions to make the same 4 strokes as a 4 stroke?
Wasn't it fun to get me on one? School me is re-stroke use is... That will be five bucks for my misinformation. Gonna cost ya me being wrong.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 06:57 PM
LOL
I am sure you will catch me too! 
Nobody is perfect! 
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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mike1024
Expert Class
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posted July 08, 2009 11:49 AM
pissear is still inarticulate and needs to grasp the concepts of the English Language. Every post he shits out is a waste of my time. Sorry piss ear, but not only did you hijack this thread unintentionally by sheer irrelevance, but you made us all stupider in the process. There are things I know but you dont, but noone CARES! Especially it its irrelevant to solving the poster's issue.
/end rant
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pissear
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posted July 08, 2009 12:41 PM
Edited By: pissear on 8 Jul 2009 20:44
Mike, I hear you loud and clear. My mind was clouded with theory is think one 360° spin for all cycles. If you think I cannot see the concepts and I have a, 4-time AMA Mechanic Of The Year telling me to shout the hell up is do not share; you better get it all confused I am going to whip your wheels all UP!
Think I am missing a sandwich is one short of a pick nick is read between the lines; is to share without the simple concept is you would not believe how simple the tune is. What we discuss and what is said between us is for our own ears.
Guess WATT? You think I CARE if you get thishit or not? Struggle through it then boy. Not my problem I take your trophy is show the ufck UP! ANYPLACE!
Pick your favorite road. I'll bump your back wheel, do not let me get behind chew backa.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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pissear
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Posts: 309
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posted July 08, 2009 12:50 PM
An old man , a boy & a donkey were going to town. The boy rode on the donkey & the old man walked. As they went along they passed some people who remarked it was a shame the old man was walking & the boy was riding.
The man & boy thought maybe the critics were right, so they changed positions.
Later, they passed some people that remarked, "What a shame, he makes that little boy walk."
They then decided they both would walk! Soon they passed some more people who thought they were stupid to walk when they had a decent donkey to ride. So, they both rode the donkey.
Now they passed some people that shamed them by saying how awful to put such a load on a poor donkey.
The boy & man said they were probably right, so they decide to carry the donkey. As they crossed the bridge, they lost their grip on the animal & he fell into the river and drowned.
The moral of the story?
If you try to please everyone, you might as well...
Kiss your ass goodbye!
Have A Nice Day &
Be Careful With Your Donkey
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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