dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 01:10 PM
LOL
Hook me up!
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1badzx12r
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posted July 07, 2009 01:49 PM
hey dub..when that tuner was melting pistons @14psi what kind of gas he was using ..and was he pulling timing .. just curious ..i also believe the more you boost the less power part ..cause i've seen that on the dyno .. 12 to 14 has been the magic spot ...but in this heat i run 10psi until dark ..
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 03:43 PM
c-16, not sure on timing, but the bike did have an msd sb6, JE pistons stock compression height, 9.5 :1 compression, 40 thous head spacer, 17 psi , melted exhaust reliefs down to the top ring
I say stock compression height, meaning the piston dome is stock height in relation to the wrist pin, and rings.
Many guys, myself inlcuded, are running -2mm rods, with an additonal 2mm between the top ring and piston dome. Increasing that distance puts more metal between the exhaust valve releifs, and the top ring,
The releifs have shown to be the weak spot, making the ring land susceptible, so the tall deck pistons circumvent some of the problem there.
The other one was completly stock engine, 11 psi, pump gas, stock timing... not much of a suprise there, said he couldn't turn down the boost as its controlled internally.
No external wastegate.
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Shane661
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posted July 07, 2009 04:14 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jul 2009 00:15
Wow, very interesting stuff. You would think that aftermarket ZX-14 turbo pistons would at least equal the stock Busa pistons....without having to use special rods. I guess not??
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 04:21 PM
The valve relief is deeper than busa, and cast pistons actually take heat better for the same thickness, I have read and been told.
In all honesty though, all aluminum melts at pretty much same temp.
Stock piston only has about 1.5 mm between top ring groove, and the bottom of the exhaust releif... it not shrouded at all really.
This is acommon problem with the new stock parts on all bikes, they tune and design them to be as light as possible, which is good for that purpose but not for the boost and nitrous so much.
I know anyone seriously turboing a GSXR since 2005, has gone back to the shorter rod, fro 04 prior, and old style taller deck pistons
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1badzx12r
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posted July 07, 2009 04:23 PM
quote:
The other one was completly stock engine, 11 psi, pump gas, stock timing... not much of a suprise there, said he couldn't turn down the boost as its controlled internally.
No external wastegate.
i guess the tuner never heard of shims behind the spring regulator to lower the spring pressure to bring the boost down ..
looks like a tuners error cost that motor
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Shane661
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posted July 07, 2009 04:27 PM
quote:
The valve relief is deeper than busa, and cast pistons actually take heat better for the same thickness, I have read and been told.
In all honesty though, all aluminum melts at pretty much same temp.
Stock piston only has about 1.5 mm between top ring groove, and the bottom of the exhaust releif... it not shrouded at all really.
This is acommon problem with the new stock parts on all bikes, they tune and design them to be as light as possible, which is good for that purpose but not for the boost and nitrous so much.
I know anyone seriously turboing a GSXR since 2005, has gone back to the shorter rod, fro 04 prior, and old style taller deck pistons
I am just a little unconvinced that aftermarket turbo pistons would be just as thin and likely to melt as the stockers. It sounds like a very lean condition. To melt the pistons you would need some pretty high egt's.
Sounds like there are some unknowns on that 9.5:1 motor that burnt up. I would be quite surprised to hear that it was running 11:1 a/f with timing pulled, on C-16. But I guess you never know...
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1badzx12r
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posted July 07, 2009 04:32 PM
dub right on the ring groove of stock and aftermarket pistons ..they are close to the top..
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Shane661
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posted July 07, 2009 04:37 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jul 2009 00:48
quote:
dub right on the ring groove of stock and aftermarket pistons ..they are close to the top..
I'm just trying to figure out how you can make a piston with a relocated wrist pin (5mm stroker using stock rods), but not have enough room for extra meat up top on a turbo piston??
Obviously, I'm no expert. Just trying to learn something...
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1badzx12r
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posted July 07, 2009 05:59 PM
i'm no expert either shane .. but i've got a set of 9.5.1 pistons on the shelf ..and a set of stockers to compare
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 06:32 PM
the pistons are special made, by running a -2mm rod( 4mm stroker), the wrist pin is moved closer to the crank. This allows room to move all of the rings down as well, leaving an extra 2mm on top of the top ring, to acheive the same compression height.
The 9.5 pistons are dished, which actually reduces the compression, which is good, but for extra ring land strength, and shrouding the ring more, the shorter rod is needed, to move the wrist pin and rings down. The new slipper short skirt designs of today use up the entire piston length for wrist pin and rings.
These engines are closer to 1.9:1 rod to stroke ratio, the idea being less side / skirt angle, which hleps reduce friction and allows a piston with much less skirt, maintain stability.
1.8;1 rod length to stroke is the "ideal " minimum, and the -2mm rods are still around 1.84:1 if I remember correctly, but they have a much better skirt design.
Here are pics for comparison
Stock and JE tall deck 9.5:1 for use with -2mm rods
MTC on left and JE , MTC 10.5:1, and JE 9.5:1, BOTH tall deck , for use with -2mm rods
I had better close ups, but can't find them.
The MTC uses a much bigger set of rings, thicker and deeper by about 35-50%, perfect for 20+ PSI boost, it also has more oil scavenging ports than the JE, which also has more than stock.
Look close at the ring lands, wrist pin area, valve releif depth at the piston edge, and oil scavenging ports.
Here is the undersides:
MTC
JE
Stock
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1badzx12r
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posted July 07, 2009 06:41 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 8 Jul 2009 02:41
i don't see an advantage to either pistons ..simply cause when it melts it melts in the valve groove of the pistons
i'll email you pics of 2 melted sets
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 06:44 PM
quote:
quote:
dub right on the ring groove of stock and aftermarket pistons ..they are close to the top..
I'm just trying to figure out how you can make a piston with a relocated wrist pin (5mm stroker using stock rods), but not have enough room for extra meat up top on a turbo piston??
Obviously, I'm no expert. Just trying to learn something...
Well, those pistons will never have to endure or see the egt's, and flame front, or combustion pressures associated with 30 PSI,
From a mechanical stand point, the rings must be right in the combustion chamber I would think?
I haven't seen them first hand myself either.
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 06:49 PM
quote:
i don't see an advantage to either pistons ..simply cause when it melts it melts in the valve groove of the pistons
i'll email you pics of 2 melted sets
Cool, I'd be very interested in seeing them! 
Check out the extra thickness of the MTC between the pocket and top valve!
Also, see how massive those ring grooves are!
Those pistons are also machined of 7071 aluminum I beleive!
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 06:51 PM
eldubois at telus dot net
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1badzx12r
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posted July 07, 2009 07:01 PM
when i send pics tomorrow you'll see what i'm talking about ..its not the top of pocket were it attacks at ..it attacks the lowest part of the pocket were the sharpest edge is and closest to the ring ..
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 07:03 PM
understood, look how thick the other pistons are compared to stock, especially the MTC at that area in my pics...
these are short rod pistons, except the stock one of course
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 07:05 PM
Edited By: dubious on 8 Jul 2009 03:09
Does the HP oil releif valve swell your oil filter?
There are 2 camps with different beleifs on this...
I am not sure if I want to use it...
BTW, if you end up going in your motor again, have a real close look at the oil pump, and the pump plate... mine was chewed up, the impeller ran into the pump plate ... I am lucky I didn't lose a bearing... ugly! 
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gilberjj
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posted July 07, 2009 07:52 PM
Dubious. My question is, why even make a bike that can make 500whp. The maxton record busa (265 mph Yancy bike) was done on 450whp. I really hope you aren't doing 265 mph often, and they really had trouble with all that power. Why don't you build a 300-350whp bike that is more reliable, and you can actually use the power? I've heard from a couple riders that they actually preferred thier previous turboed bikes with 250-300whp to their 500whp bikes because of the difference in lag, and the 500whp bikes were impossible to keep the tire from spinning once boost came on.
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dubious
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posted July 07, 2009 08:11 PM
Edited By: dubious on 8 Jul 2009 04:13
Well, the bike will be tuned for 300 HP to begin with, and thats all it will likely ever see on the street.
At the strip I will run whatever it can put to the ground!
Of course I will be learning to ride it with all the changes, so its a good chance to work out the bugs slow and safe, and school my skills at the same time.
I also have a progressive boost controller BTW, can be set up gear based for street, and time based for the track.
My long term goal is some LSR and Bonnyville as well.
The engine is severly overbuilt IMO, but thats what should make it reliable.
I (my skills) will ultimately be the limitation to the power it generates, not the bike.
Once its done, a set of pistons, rings, and bearings every season or 2 is the goal.
I certainly don't have the budget the pro's do.
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1badzx12r
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posted July 08, 2009 09:40 AM
quote:
Does the HP oil releif valve swell your oil filter?
There are 2 camps with different beleifs on this...
I am not sure if I want to use it...
BTW, if you end up going in your motor again, have a real close look at the oil pump, and the pump plate... mine was chewed up, the impeller ran into the pump plate ... I am lucky I didn't lose a bearing... ugly!
no problems with oil filter swell and i've used 3 differant brands
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14nooby
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posted July 08, 2009 10:00 AM
Dub,
I have a question about oil filter swell. I have seen an oil filter demonstration and the oil filter seal blows out way before the filter would even begin to burst. The oil filter did swell a little before the seal blew out. What would be the problem with a little swell as long as its not enough to blow out the bottom seal? Just curious?
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Shane661
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posted July 08, 2009 10:04 AM
Is anyone really running much more than 25 psi? A well built engine with properly sized Turbo should make 375 hp on around 20 psi, I would think.
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silvrevo
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posted July 08, 2009 10:57 AM
Hummmmmm,, I came from a well sorted evo , and now a 335i tt,,,
You guys are just nutts,,, but I like it. lol
A gt35r,, thats a big mo fo. 35psi?
I have no idea what is usually ran on these bikes,, but my bmw 335i has some really small snails. They hold around 17psi .
I dont know why im plugging in here,,, I sure would like to see one set up one day thou.
Boost is sooooooooo nice.
Enjoy
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'08 zx14
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dubious
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posted July 08, 2009 12:48 PM
LOL
Chris has GT35 on all his kits!
As for oil filter swell, thats not a problem I guess, blowing ther seal is obviously though, and if its swelling, its got to be close to blowing the seal, an indicator of sorts to warn you before the seal blows out and covers the rear tire at speed....
LSR guys are running 25+ PSI from what i have read.
I can get it to hook, and ride the mother, I will turn it up more! LOL
BigCC GT35
NLR uses a hybrid GT40/ 35 on some of their big kits.
Adams uses a P60 trim turbonetics from what i remember when I spoke with Colby a while ago.
I don't know exaclty what boost everyone is running at the track, and it obviuosly depends on the conditions, but the guys winning are not using the small street kits for a reason, and its inlet air temperatures I have been told by a few.
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natural selection.....
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Some are not worthy of the effort.
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