3000psi and falling
Zone Head
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posted April 23, 2009 02:21 PM
 Edited By: 3000psi and falling on 23 Apr 2009 22:29
Steering head rebuild.
Im having to replace the bearings and races. I am wondering if anyone has done this without removing the upper fairing. I bought the steering stem nut wrench, ,but not the rest of the special tools for this. It looks as if I can just use sockets to tap in the races and bearings? Has anyone done this?
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
  
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pissear
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posted April 23, 2009 03:14 PM
Are you saying your steering balls and race sort of notch to center on it's own if you moved the handle bars to the middle, say? This is on a 14 with high mileage?
It says "lube at 24K" not replace them. Unless we are wheelie prone you land on the ball and hammer the race, then yes, I can see the parts talk their toll.
You can loophole a lot of the front end is more than the fairing. I have done my share of neck race replacing. You need to hammer out the old races like hit them straight out at 12--6-9-3 0'clock kind of bang them out in an X pattern. Remember, this is soft aluminum and you do not want to elongate this material like you could get away with steel frames. Stretch the round race hole? Watch out!
So, you then grind down the old race around the O/D. You spin it on a grinder with your fingers is let it spin and grind down to where you now have a race installer. The old race should slide right up/down; if you do not have an aluminum seal or race installer. I've gotten away plenty with race metal-on-same metal race; bagging on hard race materials is careful now. You need to keep that race straight going in and she moves up like butter. Use a rawhide hammer for total installation of the races from start to finish. Nothing heavier!
Last is take a mirror and make sure you have the race sent home in the neck. You can take a scribe with the L pointed side and see if you can stick the point in between the race and machined out neck for this test to homing the race into the groove. If you can knock a tiny bit of up and down play with the scribe or can see the gap with a mirror inside the neck, you want to home those races square and flat on the cutout machined race surface, or else...
Neglect this and you home the races on a ride, the steering is now loose again with a knocking noise and bad handling characteristics.
For the lower stem race removal, you freeze the stem, then heat the race and pop it up is try that. All you need is something underneath that race is get it started and without the special tools, you can bust the bearing out, destroy the lower stem is one attempt at the race after another. You can also cut the race without touching the stem; using a cutting wheel. You then hammer the cut with a sharp chisel to spit the race open. The race comes off like turn the lower stem upside down, hold out your hand is something like that.
Now you need a pipe long enough to go down the stem to hammer the new bearing on. You can't hammer the cage with the balls or you indent what you are trying to replace. You can turn the stem upside down into a vice and hammer the bearing on like that is again; with no press, or special tools, you improvise the, MackGuyVeer.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 23, 2009 04:13 PM
When the bike was brand new I had to take it back for a poping sound from the steering head, I could feel the pop through the bars. They told me they just tightend it up. About 10,000 miles and 8 months later is back. Yeah I do A lot of wheelie's and do put it down hard when racing sometimes. Kawasaki will not do this repair under warranty, they are telling me this is a wear item and that its "Periodic Maintence" -What a bunch of shit, in less than a year I have had this happen twice now, add this to the list of things wrong with my brand new bike.
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 23, 2009 04:38 PM
The more I look into this the more confused I get. I have checked and adjusted the steering head freeplay by the shop manual. The bars turn nice and smooth just as they should. But the poping is still there when you hit a bump or brake firmly with the front break.
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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dubious
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posted April 24, 2009 06:32 AM
I would not consider even trying to get the new races on the steering stem without a press.... very difficult to do with out causing damage...
Sounds like there is play, have you tried adjusting the bearing preload?
You can leave the top fairing on the bike without issue.
I will be pulling the frt on my bike for the last time to seal the hole in the headstay and install my new steering stops, if you like I can put up pics.
LMK
Lyle
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Some are not worthy of the effort.
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pissear
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posted April 24, 2009 07:04 AM
quote:
I would not consider even trying to get the new races on the steering stem without a press.... very difficult to do with out causing damage...
Sounds like there is play, have you tried adjusting the bearing preload?
Lyle
That's why you can knock that race in with a rawhide. We start from picking up the race to you picking up the frame is someone yell, Go! A press is push the metal and the tap is it keeps moving not bulldoze the machined area you cannot feel [is too late damage done] with a press is my guess.
And yes, I agree with the, Dub. There is still a knock; if that bearing is not sitting home with just the right zero push and pull on the front end. You should be able to duplicate that knock by a simple; hold the front brake,
rock it fore and aft; to make the same knock; as if you were [riding] slammed on the brakes; the frame coils up on the balls and then off the balls are the races loose as a goose is scratching my head... Wondering how a goose pisses?
The balls do not rotate where the rolling mass is distributed as it rolls over a bump like a car bearing. This bearing does not move basically. So that hammering all the time on the same spot is like normal wear. I would pack the bearings with a grease fitting if you want to sport the front end. Let it drop on some packed bearing grease and not 5,000 miles down the road it's dry bouncing the front end up and down.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 24, 2009 07:08 AM
Yes, I Adjusted the steering freeplay/preload by the shop manual. I got to a point where the bearings were to tight (the handle bars would not coast from center to lock on there own)but the popping was still there, that is what has me lost here, if the bearing or races were bad wouldnt I be feeling some roughness or something when I turned the bars??. I do have access to a large press, So I should press the new races on useing the old races as install tool like pissear was saying And yes, I would like to see those pics thanks,
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 24, 2009 07:17 AM
Edited By: 3000psi and falling on 24 Apr 2009 15:18
"And yes, I agree with the, Dub. There is still a knock; if that bearing is not sitting home with just the right zero push and pull on the front end. You should be able to duplicate that knock by a simple; hold the front brake,"
Before I tightend the steering head, I could duplicate the sould by holding the front break and pushing hard on the bars forward and back, But not that I have tightend the bearings I cannot get it to pop unless Im riding and break moderatley, or run over a bump,
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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pissear
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posted April 24, 2009 07:21 AM
I think what you are saying, psi, is that you are watching the front end whip back and forth if you just moved the steering to center; let go of the bars; you would see the front end rock back and forth until it settled into the groove. It is real subtle and you almost have to move it with a feather to feel the notch-in-the-ball-to-race.
So, maybe your adjustment is off and out of the indents when you setup the front end play. Once that baby finds home [in the race caved in area] she dances back and forth in the pocket and now you feel that knock; is again, I have no clue but to guess at that play.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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pissear
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posted April 24, 2009 07:24 AM
quote:
But not that I have tightend the bearings I cannot get it to pop unless Im riding and break moderatley, or run over a bump,
I can make my fork top out an it sounds like a knock almost every time I roll up the driveway. So, could it be the topping out of the front end, not the steering bearings per say? That notch in the front end would tell you for sure though.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 24, 2009 07:35 AM
I thought maybe to, but It only takes a very small sharp bump to set it off, I'm going to start to take it all apart now, What should I look for as far as damage?
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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pissear
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posted April 24, 2009 08:10 AM
Edited By: pissear on 24 Apr 2009 16:30
You will see the race with a ball indent [wipe the race clean]..... Like every ball will leave a mark all around the race. Angle your eyes to the shadow is move over it till you see the pattern.
 Ball to race damage shows this pattern.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 24, 2009 02:29 PM
Thanks for the picture, Mine show no marks or other damage. The bearings also looked like new. I have a new pair of bearings and races and compaired them to the ones in my bike, the ones in the bike look and feel the same. So I cleaned and lubed them and re assembled the steering head. I could not get the steering lock nut as tight as I would have liked with a screw driver and hammer without damaging it to bad, ( im waiting on the the steering stem nut wrench to show up). I took it for a ride and could tell it was much better, If I ride for a bit and pull a wheelie or two then slow down and break hard I can still get it to pop but its not as bad now. Do you think I could get it tighter with the kawasaki steering stem nut wrench tool and stop all the popping?? The shop manual is not to clear on how tight it could have to be.. Is it easy to over tourqe this??
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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pissear
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posted April 24, 2009 06:42 PM
No, I doubt you can remove the knock with the special tool. Remember, the FSM is vague; stating that you just release a little bit of play if the steering is not swapping lock to lock smooth. So, you more or less feel for a knock or induce the knock. Then you move that one special collar tighter to achieve the loose swing but not as loose to begin the knock.
Are you sure there is not outer race that is floating in the neck causing the knock? Like elongate the neck with wheelie pops?
Say you overload the collar? This is going to indent the balls. So you do not want to really hammer hard or torque this over say 5ft.lbs. then back off till you feel that smooth swing from stiff is that collar loading onto the balls. Then you are done if that swing does not hang up and is smooth from lock to lock. What trick is next is to torque the piggyback collar without moving the lower collar.
You could have used a brass drift and hammered the piggyback collar to lock on top of the other collar without the special tool. But the tool works much better when you are first setting up the front end.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 24, 2009 07:44 PM
Im sure that all the races are like new and not floating in the neck. I tightend the stem lock nut up a bit more with a home made hook wrench, it seems to have stoped the slight pop I was feeling. I think the steering may be a bit on the tight side, when the front wheel is off the ground and I swing the bars lock to lock they dont go as freely as stated in the manual. It takes a firm push to get them to coast from center to lock. But it is smooth with no hanging up from lock to lock. Its not so tight that it makes the bike handle bad though, it seems to drive and handle fine. To stop the poping the stem nut is much tighter then 5lbs, more like 20-25lbs.. So im guessing that the bearings wont last long with that much pressure?
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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pissear
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posted April 25, 2009 05:34 AM
Edited By: pissear on 25 Apr 2009 13:41
Correct > That is too much pressure!
The book is so A-B and the other photo uses the same A-B, but now the stem nuts or special collars are all over the place, they switch things and now that looks confusing. But here are the steps I am looking at is forget the book but show me the torque spec. Now here is where we are discussing torque numbers.
The book says "Home the bearings and load the balls with the first collar is torque to 41 foot pounds, then back off to find your lock to lock." This is for setting up new bearing is home the races (first) using 41lbs. of load.
We already have our bearing set, so I suggested to start at 5lbs. so you know tight is 5 pounds over is I want zero pounds and not a knock is like slipping a feeler gauge under a cam and shim bucket, but I am using half a c-hair gap is feel that zero load sort of spin the bucket is you still can with half of the diameter of her fill in the blank. Say like, take a rubber band on the end of the handle bar and it better move the bar and not snap the band is that is way too tight a bearing!
So we now have the first special collar over the top of the bearings and that is our zero load. We now want to lock the second collar to 17ft.lbs. {and we are done loading ball]. Last thing we want to do now is to move the first [or lower] collar? NO WAY! We move that first collar, our valve adjustment is off just as if our ball load is off, we twisted the nut on the rocker arm to tighten, the adjust screw moved too, we now screwed the valve adjustment as we barked down on the nut = The adjuster (first collar) moved too.
That means, we did the same thing to the steering stem, (when the lower collar moved with the upper collar; torqued to 17ft.lbs.). You now feel that tight feel on the steering - If the lower collar moved.
Did you watch that lower collar move with the upper collar? There you go. Now you have to start all over; compensate like I do is add what is almost a knock on one end, but is really just more load off the balls. So, now you sort of move both collars to your marking point and stop at 17lbs. foot.
If you need to, use a stationary marker to keep the lower collar from moving. Once you [have the correct load on the balls] torque that second top special collar to 17lbs. foot. If not,. you let it slide now like it is, you might induce that pit in the races like you do not see them now. You need to have that ball float between the races and not roll up the race but stay in place at the lowest point.
And that is all about feel and swinging smooth lock to lock. Even the upper steering stem nut torqued; will pull the crown up and there is more load you need to compensate for. Getherdone. Start all over... It's good you walked away form it for a day. Now it will be a piece of cake this time around.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 25, 2009 06:11 AM
Ok, the dealer called back, The service manager convenced Kawasaki to cover this under warranty since the bike had been in for this problem when it was brand new, and because the bike been so troublesome (it has had lots of problems, cam cover leak twice, swing arm bolt recall, steering head work needed twice now, Fi light, all in less then a year and 10,000 miles). So i'm going throw in the towle on this one and take it to them on the 7th, I hope they dont dick me around...
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 27, 2009 05:37 AM
Edited By: 3000psi and falling on 27 Apr 2009 16:27
I think I found the problem!!!! I took a shot and re- tourqed the front motor mounts, The right side mount bottom bolt turned about 1/8 of a turn. That must have been all it took to let the mount shift a tad every time i'd put stress on the frame from breaking. I have gone on a test drive and the pop is gone! So i'll reset the steering head bearing freeplay and re test, but i'm sure that fixed it!!! Yeah i'm going riding today!!! Thanks for all your help, at least now i know how to adjust the steering bearings..lol
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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pissear
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posted April 27, 2009 08:16 AM
At least I know how flexy that flyer is = WOW! Hold my swing arm, I am going to check the frame for squeaks and knocks.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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INTIMIDA2OR
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RED rider!
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posted April 27, 2009 10:49 AM
Wow i would never have guessed that a motor mount would have been the the thing to check lol!
But then trying to diagnose a bike over the internet is a bit of a challenge 
Cool deal!
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted April 27, 2009 12:05 PM
I never would have thought that the frame would flex that much under hard breaking, but then again the motor is a part of the frame.. Well at lease I know the steering head bearings are in good shape and dont need to be lubed for the next 20,000 miles! Thanks for the help guys, it was not in vaine, I learned all about steering head bearings and how to maintain them. Now if this got dang rain would go away i'd be back to hunting down Busa's and bending time and space with my Ninja!
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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dcjens
Pro
Wet side of Washington
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posted May 13, 2010 07:17 PM
classic pissear here 
this topic has me wondering why KHI uses ball bearings and races on a 14. I changed out several old Z-1's and KZ"s ball-bearing & races for tapered roller bearings and never had another problem with dented/pitted races. I got the Z1 for $200 because it was unsafe over 35 mph and could barely steer. I bought it sight-unseen because I knew what the problem was. huge dents in the races and rusty ball bearings. ( sold it for &1500 a week later )
This bike being a wheely monster makes me want to do this during winter boredom.
Any ideas on where to get tapered rollers and races? made from scratch even.
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Black 06
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3000psi and falling
Zone Head
Posts: 848
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posted May 13, 2010 07:51 PM
They use ball bearing for a lighter feel.
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08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted May 16, 2010 10:10 PM
quote:
classic pissear here
this topic has me wondering why KHI uses ball bearings and races on a 14. I changed out several old Z-1's and KZ"s ball-bearing & races for tapered roller bearings and never had another problem with dented/pitted races. I got the Z1 for $200 because it was unsafe over 35 mph and could barely steer. I bought it sight-unseen because I knew what the problem was. huge dents in the races and rusty ball bearings. ( sold it for &1500 a week later )
This bike being a wheely monster makes me want to do this during winter boredom.
Any ideas on where to get tapered rollers and races? made from scratch even.
I haven't heard of tapered steering head bearings for any late model sport bike .
That was the mod of the day for the old z1's and bikes of that era.
Even my 1983 Honda CB1100F has tapered bearings as oem equipment and they still look good!
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted May 17, 2010 01:20 AM
My old S.O.H.C. 750 Honda had the same ball bearing design. You had to keep track of the # of balls as top and bottom were different. I hated it and installed the tapered bearing kit
back then. My older brother had a old Triumph that had a adjustmant knob to tighten the bearings.
Louis
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