Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted April 10, 2009 07:23 PM
quote:
I bet even with the muzzy pipe, if you run the brock track map, you will net an increase in trap speed. say I'm crazy, then try it.
Okay your crazy, tried this back in 03 when we had 2 busa's with muzzy pipes that would not et or mph worth a shit, i switched to the Brocks and his map and picked up .20 and 3 to 4 mph. put the track map in the other busa with the muzzy pipe and picked up nothing.
  
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AZ ZX14
Expert Class
Posts: 132
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posted April 10, 2009 08:12 PM
When you do compare the two on the street. Try two tests.......one make sure both have the same gearing and both are going 60 MPH in 2nd at hit the gas and shift a few gears.
Then get going 80 in 6th gear and hit the gas and see what a M14 does. You may be suprised. I was and have done this with a Yoush and a Brocks.
Now for what Brock would want is get going in 2nd gear at 8000 RPM and hit it, Brocks works best at higher RPM but the Muzzy M14 is no pooch from 3000 to 9000.
Shouldn’t this competition show the difference in the lower end as well as upper?
____________
2008 ZX-14
Flies out
PCIII / USB
Brocks Alien head
Puig DB Screen
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted April 10, 2009 08:16 PM
 Edited By: Wheelie on 11 Apr 2009 06:04
quote:
When you do compare the two on the street. Try two tests.......one make sure both have the same gearing and both are going 60 MPH in 2nd at hit the gas and shift a few gears.
Then get going 80 in 6th gear and hit the gas and see what a M14 does. You may be suprised. I was and have done this with a Yoush and a Brocks.
Now for what Brock would want is get going in 2nd gear at 8000 RPM and hit it, Brocks works best at higher RPM but the Muzzy M14 is no pooch from 3000 to 9000.
Shouldn’t this competition show the difference in the lower end as well as upper?
nope, we're into peak hp for drag racing
wee
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted April 11, 2009 01:51 AM
quote:
quote:
When you do compare the two on the street. Try two tests.......one make sure both have the same gearing and both are going 60 MPH in 2nd at hit the gas and shift a few gears.
Then get going 80 in 6th gear and hit the gas and see what a M14 does. You may be suprised. I was and have done this with a Yoush and a Brocks.
Now for what Brock would want is get going in 2nd gear at 8000 RPM and hit it, Brocks works best at higher RPM but the Muzzy M14 is no pooch from 3000 to 9000.
Shouldn’t this competition show the difference in the lower end as well as upper?
nope, we're into peak hp for drag racing
wee
Some of us wee ride on the street :-) 99% of the time my bike is Not strapped
I have a 2008 C14 seat for sport touring so 6th gear mid range HP and torque is
important. At least to me :-)
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
Posts: 3196
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posted April 11, 2009 11:25 AM
I will test it all and I intend to. When I switch the exhaust, I will got back to a 17/41 so I have the same gearing as Sticks. I intend on doing around 5000 rolls ons so we can definetly know which strength each pipe has. I also plan on switching bikes and duplicating each race aboard each others bikes to take out the rider aspect.
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turbomark
Expert Class
Brock's SMEG 188.82 hp.
Posts: 161
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posted April 11, 2009 07:07 PM
Brock's pipe makes power.
I own an '09 ZX14, I dynoed the bike bone stock and it made 174.78. After installing Brock's SMEG system with not other mods, that's right no PCV either. The bike was dynoed again and it made 188.82 Dyno sheets are posted. What you got for that Muzzy? 
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted April 11, 2009 07:22 PM
what do those numbers calculate in sae?
wee
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Bawls
Needs a job
re-learning to ride
Posts: 2701
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posted April 11, 2009 07:31 PM
the best way to win a 6th gear roll on is to leave in 3rd 
____________
Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
Brockland Police Badge # 001
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zerotahero
Novice Class
Posts: 89
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posted April 12, 2009 12:08 AM
please post the day this is going down. i have the m-10 system on mine.
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
Posts: 3196
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posted April 12, 2009 06:49 AM
Sure, I'll video everything. My alien head will be arriving in a couple days.
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tech73x
Expert Class
Posts: 106
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posted April 12, 2009 07:10 AM
I have the alienhead and a m14/m10 setup sitting in my living room. I am going to take measurements on both, diameter, taper length, collector size etc. I have been tuning drag cars for a long time with FAST systems, DFI and other wideband configs. When you go from one style of header to another style and the primary diameter, collector and length are the same, we dont have to retune. Even going from a mid, shorty style to a long tube the fuel mapping is very little altered. I am looking at both systems and you cant tell me with one loaded map, be it the muzzy's or the brock's map, that one or the other pipes would make 1 to 2 horse difference in the range, not gonna happen. And yes the power commander software and tuning capability are very infantile in there programming aspects. Not saying you don't need them, because yes you do. But comparing them to a early to mid 80's GM prom type computer would be a very good comparison. Thats why the Bazzaz, I hope I spelled that right  is interesting. We have put 2 on Busas and are playing with them now. With aftermarket tuning systems like power commander's, DFI, whatever its also about the processor speed and link sys. Thats why the new car's computers are so lightning fast because of the CAN system. Anyway, Ill post up what I find, Focker out
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted April 12, 2009 07:23 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 12 Apr 2009 15:35
Have fun with your inconclusive testing, guys. 
Gilberjj, Sticks is like 300 lbs, right? If you are normal-sized it shouldn't make a difference which bike you are on...you should wallop him.
Yes, the bike FI is pretty weak right now, but getting better. The best setup is probably reflashing the ecu (on the Busa). But obviously these systems are still very limited.
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
Posts: 3196
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posted April 12, 2009 10:59 PM
quote:
Have fun with your inconclusive testing, guys.
Gilberjj, Sticks is like 300 lbs, right? If you are normal-sized it shouldn't make a difference which bike you are on...you should wallop him.
Yes, the bike FI is pretty weak right now, but getting better. The best setup is probably reflashing the ecu (on the Busa). But obviously these systems are still very limited.
I've though of that. Switching bikes will combat that. I'm about 245ish suited, so it's not a HUGE difference. We'll see how it goes.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted April 13, 2009 03:17 AM
60 lbs. is actually a lot...probably .20 in the 1/4 mile...
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted April 13, 2009 07:12 AM
quote:
60 lbs. is actually a lot...probably .20 in the 1/4 mile...
Totally agree. Will have to be the same rider. I got zero problem with Gilberjj riding my bike, and I even got Muzzy lowering brackets out back to match his hieght.
Tech73: you and I are on the same page, thanks for the backup and info.
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted April 13, 2009 07:21 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 13 Apr 2009 15:28
quote:
quote:
60 lbs. is actually a lot...probably .20 in the 1/4 mile...
Totally agree. Will have to be the same rider. I got zero problem with Gilberjj riding my bike, and I even got Muzzy lowering brackets out back to match his hieght.
Tech73: you and I are on the same page, thanks for the backup and info.
So, if Gilberjj rides the bike every time...how are you comparing the two? What is your precise testing method?
If the pipes really are within 1-2 hp on the dyno...do you think you can accurately measure that across two different bikes? Or even one for that matter?
It just looks like a waste of time to prove what everyone already knows. The Muzzy makes good power...is cheaper, heavier, and with less support.
As far as Tech73 backing you up...on what, the obvious? Yes, bike FI is well behind the times. Yes, a power commander is needed. As for the maps...well, when you buy a Muzzy, you ask for a map from them...when you buy a Brock's you get their maps...that is the fair way to test the product. Otherwise, add in $300 for a custom map for the Muzzy pipe. Unless you plan to steal a Brock's map.
And yes, Sticks, I'm out to get you! 
Shane
PS. I had the M14, and I'm installing the Brock's now. I had no complaints on the M14...but I wanted something lighter...
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted April 13, 2009 07:32 AM
quote:
quote:
I bet even with the muzzy pipe, if you run the brock track map, you will net an increase in trap speed. say I'm crazy, then try it.
Okay your crazy, tried this back in 03 when we had 2 busa's with muzzy pipes that would not et or mph worth a shit, i switched to the Brocks and his map and picked up .20 and 3 to 4 mph. put the track map in the other busa with the muzzy pipe and picked up nothing.
dont know about first gen busas, i was talking about 14's
____________
08 ZX14
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted April 13, 2009 08:53 AM
dyno and then drag testing the two pipes will satisfy 3 things Shane:
1: It will be damned fun, and a memorable way to spend a weekend.
2: They dyno curves overlaid on each other, and the 1/4 mile mph along with the riders back to back opinions of both exhausts characteristics will be a useful reference if anyone gets too out of hand in the future when discussing either exhaust. Come on, how many of you wish you had identically prepped bikes with different exhausts installed that you could literally do back to back runs on? Some say "Why?" I say "Why Not?"
3: The video and pictures will give you guys stuck in the snow or at work hours and hours of entertainment tearing every angle of it apart - while secretly wishing you were there.
Speaking of #3: Dragracer, Old Man, Some Guy, Ninja Of Doom, et al why dont you guys show up and run with us, or just watch the dyno runs and make it a zx14 get together?
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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slates
Expert Class
Posts: 377
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posted April 13, 2009 09:08 AM
quote:
This is a GREAT idea!
Let the whole internet world know what you find.
Brock
www.BrocksPerformance.com
Don't you think that Brock already tested this considering his response? What good company doesn't test its competitors equipment to compare hp, weight, etc.
Waste of money IMO, but I still would like to see it if someone wants to do it. They better make sure they have proper documentation for everything they do including location, atmospheric conditions and time of day. Let the pipes do the talking and not the test procedures.
____________
black zx14 - Brock's Gen3 Carbon, PCIII, no secondaries, Carrozzeria wheels, Sato rearsets, Pazzo levers, GPR V4 steering damper, Puig windscreen, Tiger Racing chain guard
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tech73x
Expert Class
Posts: 106
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posted April 13, 2009 09:13 AM
In my own opinion with both exhausts in front of me, the muzzy's is built better and fits better, I like the look of the alienhead a little more though. Both Brocks and Muzzy's have bought and tested each other's pipes and know this and that. So yeah, it would be fun testing this theory in "our" real world enviroment. But Im telling you same map on the same bike with both exhaust is not going to net any huge difference in power. I am going to weigh each system tonight with all springs and everything. Because weight is the only thing you are going to see the "big" difference in.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted April 13, 2009 09:52 AM
quote:
. I am going to weigh each system tonight with all springs and everything. Because weight is the only thing you are going to see the "big" difference in.
Yeah..tell me if you come up with something different than I did:
(posted earlier in the thread)
quote:
From my build thread, why I made a switch:
quote:
Today I weighed some exhaust system components. I'm not sure that I will find a tremendously lighter exhaust than the Muzzy M14. Maybe TiForce?
Header 7 lbs. 8 oz.
Mid Pipe 1 lb. 8 oz.
Stainless Muffler 5lb. 2 oz.
Area P Muffler 3 lb. 13.4 oz.
With Area P Carbon Muffler, this whole system weighs about 13 lbs.
------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
My new Brock's Performance exhaust arrived today:
Everything was packaged very well. The exhaust system consists of several pipe sections, retention springs, and the muffler:
Also included with the exhaust was a spring puller to help with assembly, which is a nice touch. If you've ever tried installing springs without a tool, you know how tough it can be without one.
A few minutes and I had everything test-fitted:
As you can see, I went with the Shortmeg. It has a removable baffle, unlike the Alien Head:
I know this pipe will make excellent power. The big question for me was weight. I already knew what to expect after talking with Brock. When I told him how concerned with weight I was, he went so far as to pull a system and double check it for me. My measurements came out exactly the same as his. Just under 9 lbs, without the retention springs installed.
Here is how the weight breaks down, by my scale:
Assembled Header 5 lb. 15 oz.
Midpipe 5 oz.
Muffler with baffle 2 lb. 11 oz.
Springs 5 oz.
So, about 9 lbs. 4 oz complete with baffle. I plan to remove the baffle later, for even more weight savings (racing only). It will probably be easier to do that once the pipe is on the bike. In addition to the weight lost by going with the Brock's system, I am able to do away with the exhaust hanger/peg bracket. In my case, I have a TWW hanger which is about .5 lb. The stock hanger with peg is over one pound.
The Brock exhaust is approximately 5 lbs. lighter than the Muzzy system I was using. Add another .5 loss, due to the removal of the hanger.
Hope this clears up the weight issue.
Shane
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06redzx14
Pro
Posts: 1022
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posted April 13, 2009 07:01 PM
switched my m10 for the alien head today. the standard m10 can throat fit's inside the alien head inlet and still has about 1/8 of an inch all the way around it. the alien head compared to the STANDARD M10 picked up 1/2-3/4 of an inch ground clearance at the lowest point
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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00Busa
Expert Class
Trying to go FASTER !
Posts: 270
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posted April 14, 2009 04:06 AM
Edited By: 00Busa on 14 Apr 2009 13:16
I have a BDE S-Meg on my 14 as well but the dyno sheets that were posted were done using a different gear or gearing for each pull therefore skeewing the comparison. There are several different things you can do during a dyno pull to make it vary but using a different gear/gearing is obvious when you look at the mph at redline on both pulls.
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'00 Busa / '06 14 /
IT AINT BRAGGING, IF YOU CAN BACK IT UP !
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icarus
Expert Class
Posts: 344
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posted April 14, 2009 02:37 PM
Hey tech73x , interesting sig you got there. Do Brock's pipes really suck or are you just
too stupid to install one correctly.
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8.820 @ 161.05
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Swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted April 14, 2009 05:14 PM
Brock vs Muzzy? Muzzy M10 was his first try with straight header pipes and not even close to a Brock hence the reason for a M14, M14 looks a lot like Brock's 1st and old 2006-2008 design and it's Muzzy's 2nd try at it, you want to do a end all test, then you need to test Brocks new and 2nd design agains't the M14, the new CT out performs the Alien Head by a good margin, just show's no one stops development so there will never be an end all, it's down to buyers choice.
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2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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