Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted April 09, 2009 10:42 AM
Shoot Some Guy, the passes even clear of snow yet? Bring it on over! oh wait, its , once again, suppposed to rain this weekend. 
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'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
  
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
Posts: 3196
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posted April 09, 2009 11:12 AM
Well sticks, I think this thread is a bust. I think people would rather argue then really find out which makes better/more power. I've officially purchased my brocks alien head, now I'm just waiting on it to get here....... I hate waiting.
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Sticks_n_Stones
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Posts: 3930
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posted April 09, 2009 11:32 AM
Not a big bust actually. We will just wait until a dyno shootout at a dealer to do it. We enter your bike twice, bring a scale maybe too. For the runs I say we just leave in whatever map you got now. Changing maps will open a whole nother can of variables- and most guys that really care will have a custom map anyways... this is just an exhaust check.
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'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted April 09, 2009 11:44 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Apr 2009 19:44
quote:
Not a big bust actually. We will just wait until a dyno shootout at a dealer to do it. We enter your bike twice, bring a scale maybe too. For the runs I say we just leave in whatever map you got now. Changing maps will open a whole nother can of variables- and most guys that really care will have a custom map anyways... this is just an exhaust check.
So, you are saying change the exhausts but don't change the maps? That's pretty ridiculous. 
As for "bringing a scale"....well, yeah, maybe the fact that I weighed every individual component of each system, to the ounce, isn't good enough. 
Shane
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Bawls
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re-learning to ride
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posted April 09, 2009 11:44 AM
How can you do an accurate Comparo without mapping for each exhaust? That makes absolutely no sense.
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Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
Brockland Police Badge # 001
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gilberjj
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Friend of Fast
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posted April 09, 2009 12:25 PM
OF COURSE I WOULD CHANGE THE MAP!!!!! Sorry that wasn't clear. I wouldn't run a bike with a map that wasn't made for the pipe!
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Sticks_n_Stones
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Posts: 3930
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posted April 09, 2009 01:26 PM
Just thinking that a map difference could make or break this shootout, since I dont forsee there being more than a couple HP difference in output. Do you guys really think that the flow characteristics of each pipe is so different that one good map wouldn't work for both?
Realistically, with only being able to adjust fuel nozzle duty cycle (which is all the PCIII map does), I honestly don't see there being anything there to gain, but alot to lose. It's not like we can adjust timing to compensate for each cylinders improved flow. But i guess manufacturers maps are just as important as there actual pipes performance in the great scheme of things.
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'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted April 09, 2009 04:25 PM
quote:
Realistically, with only being able to adjust fuel nozzle duty cycle (which is all the PCIII map does), I honestly don't see there being anything there to gain, but alot to lose.
Sticks, just a friendly suggestion...read up on air fuel ratio's, and how adjusting them affects power...and also how the flow characteristics of an exhaust can require changes to the map...aka altering injector duty cycles.
Shane
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted April 09, 2009 05:05 PM
I bet even with the muzzy pipe, if you run the brock track map, you will net an increase in trap speed. say I'm crazy, then try it.
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08 ZX14
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northernkaw
Expert Class
Posts: 215
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posted April 09, 2009 05:14 PM
we just tested the brock with the short meg on it to the m14. the brock made 1 more hp but it was on the bike first. the brock was also run with the muzzy map. same torque numbers for both and the brock was 2 lbs lighter. the muzzy really gives you more ground clearence and has the bung for an 02 sensor. the tests where the same bike same day and the time difference was how long it took to change the pipe.muzzies claim of 200 hp is way off.muzzy made 181.9/108.5 brock 182.8/108.5 std with a pc.
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted April 09, 2009 05:17 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Apr 2009 01:21
Which Brock and Which Muzzy? I have measured these pipes to the ounce..and it is way more than 2 lbs....shortmeg vs. stainless oval is around 5 lbs...and with the Shortmeg you can ditch the pipe hanger as well, for another 1+ lb savings.
Agree on the ground clearance and 02 bung...not surprised on the power, either. But why didn't you use a map made for the Brock's??
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted April 09, 2009 07:18 PM
says the shortmeg, and he used the muzzy map for both
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08 ZX14
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LAB3
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posted April 10, 2009 04:21 AM
quote:
we just tested the brock with the short meg on it to the m14. the brock made 1 more hp but it was on the bike first. the brock was also run with the muzzy map. same torque numbers for both and the brock was 2 lbs lighter. the muzzy really gives you more ground clearence and has the bung for an 02 sensor. the tests where the same bike same day and the time difference was how long it took to change the pipe.muzzies claim of 200 hp is way off.muzzy made 181.9/108.5 brock 182.8/108.5 std with a pc.
I talked to Dave Turner at Muzzy about the 200 HP, it meant this M14 was made for a engine
with mods',(larger pistons,crank etc) and would flow a 200 HP engine,
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Sticks_n_Stones
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Posts: 3930
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posted April 10, 2009 08:56 AM
Edited By: Sticks_n_Stones on 10 Apr 2009 16:57
quote:
quote:
Realistically, with only being able to adjust fuel nozzle duty cycle (which is all the PCIII map does), I honestly don't see there being anything there to gain, but alot to lose.
Sticks, just a friendly suggestion...read up on air fuel ratio's, and how adjusting them affects power...and also how the flow characteristics of an exhaust can require changes to the map...aka altering injector duty cycles.
Shane
Read up on it? I've been deciphering and modifying automotive maps for over a decade. have you even seen a cars topographical interface spark/fuel/rpm/throttle position map before? The PCIII is a joke compared to even a Geo Metro's baseline computer. The last time a cars computer was as slow and outdated as your average bike's computer was in the early 80's! Amazingly they are allowed to get away with crappy A/F ratios and lack of closed loop operation.
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'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted April 10, 2009 08:58 AM
Silver08 thanks for the great info! Thats exactly what i was talking about, and leaving in the same map allowed the exhausts to be tested, not the maps. Of course I'm wondering now what the results would have been if you had ran both the Muzzy and Brocks map on each... I wouldnt be surprised if Brocks made more power on both.
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'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted April 10, 2009 09:22 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Apr 2009 17:25
quote:
Read up on it? I've been deciphering and modifying automotive maps for over a decade. have you even seen a cars topographical interface spark/fuel/rpm/throttle position map before? The PCIII is a joke compared to even a Geo Metro's baseline computer. The last time a cars computer was as slow and outdated as your average bike's computer was in the early 80's! Amazingly they are allowed to get away with crappy A/F ratios and lack of closed loop operation.
Well, by your logic posted in this thread, why even bother with a power commander?
You want to run the pipes with same map, smart guy. Why should a pipe manufacturer even offer maps...when according to you it will make little or no positive difference?
You post some really stupid stuff sometimes, Sticks. Sorry, but I had to say it.
Shane
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Sticks_n_Stones
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Posts: 3930
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posted April 10, 2009 10:49 AM
Then send me a gen 3 map and I'll compare it to the Muzzy, and see if there is any worthwhile difference. I'm betting they're damn close to each other. Point is, getting a custom map for your setup will have a more drastic affect than whether its a top of the line Muzzy or Brocks exhaust. And since I cant afford to have a custom dyno queen map made for each exhaust, using a 'control' map that is damn close with both exhausts is a good second.
Oh well, I'm done here. I don't have enough dyno and tuning experience to really prove my point, or for that matter prove your point. And by now, the guys that 'know' aren't gonna enter this debate.
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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northernkaw
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Posts: 215
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posted April 10, 2009 11:02 AM
if you get on muzzies site in an add for the m14 they said quote " When dyno tested with race fuel, the '08 ZX-14 results came in well over 200hp (STD corrected) with a Muzzy mapped Power Commander."I would like to know what fuel will add 20hp to a 14. if that is what they ment the add is very misleading. a friend of mine bought the pipe with dave saying he should make over 190hp with pump fuel on a stock motor it did not do any better then the brock.
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KawaBonzai
Zone Head
Leader of the Back.
Posts: 537
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posted April 10, 2009 02:37 PM
Great. this thread is 3 pages long and we have not even had a system on a dyno yet nor a paypal to send bribe money too. 
We have managed to cover all the same 'ol shit like maps, customer service, weight, look, and sex appeal.
The "End-All" thread that only managed to stir the pot.
Action ... less words.
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PC-III w/USB, Muzzys M14 + Carbon Oval + M10, BMC Race Filter, Flies Out, Buell Pegs, Heli Risers
www.TucsonSportRiders.com - Tucson's Premier SportRider Community
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted April 10, 2009 02:43 PM
And guess what? Who cares what the dyno says?
It doesn't tell you which one is faster on the road or track anyway...
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masszx14
Pro
A mind beside itself!
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posted April 10, 2009 03:30 PM
The part with bringing in the scale is just funny 
more posts and more pages... 
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universal@mind
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Brock
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posted April 10, 2009 06:43 PM
This is a GREAT idea!
Let the whole internet world know what you find. 
Brock
www.BrocksPerformance.com
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Wheelie
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Old Man
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posted April 10, 2009 06:45 PM
quote:
This is a GREAT idea!
Let the whole internet world know what you find.
Brock
www.BrocksPerformance.com
we already know the answer.
wee
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
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posted April 10, 2009 06:47 PM
quote:
This is a GREAT idea!
Let the whole internet world know what you find.
Brock
www.BrocksPerformance.com
I think this is going to happen and I will have to do it with my own money. I'm getting my alien head next week (it was shipped today). I'll video racing flat out with another rider with an m14 to give you all a picture of which makes more power on the dyno AND on the street! I WANT TO KNOW AND IM GOING TO FIND OUT!
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LAB3
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posted April 10, 2009 07:06 PM
quote:
quote:
This is a GREAT idea!
Let the whole internet world know what you find.
Brock
www.BrocksPerformance.com
I think this is going to happen and I will have to do it with my own money. I'm getting my alien head next week (it was shipped today). I'll video racing flat out with another rider with an m14 to give you all a picture of which makes more power on the dyno AND on the street! I WANT TO KNOW AND IM GOING TO FIND OUT!
When you do compare the two on the street. Try two tests.......one make sure both have the same gearing and both are going 60 MPH in 2nd at hit the gas and shift a few gears.
Then get going 80 in 6th gear and hit the gas and see what a M14 does. You may be suprised. I was and have done this with a Yoush and a Brocks.
Now for what Brock would want is get going in 2nd gear at 8000 RPM and hit it, Brocks works best at higher RPM but the Muzzy M14 is no pooch from 3000 to 9000.
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