Shane661
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posted May 13, 2009 09:34 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 13 May 2009 17:38
You may wonder why Smokin and I seem to disagree on this. We are looking at the horse from different angles. The ram air works great for what Smokin needs...it builds what pressure it makes quickly, within the 1/4 mile. For me, it is not so good because it doesn't build any more pressure at top speed...
Shane
  
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dubious
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posted May 13, 2009 09:40 AM
Interesting. I was under the impression the boundry vorticies created in the walls of the naca duct increased velocity of the air entering with out disturbing the boundry layer on the body.
If they would have made it larger, in theory it would create pressure as the velocity of the low density air would create pressure in the smaller ram air ducts.
I noticed the preproduction bikes appeared to have larger naca ducts than the production models, but as we all know $ cost more than sense when production rolls around.
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slates
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posted May 13, 2009 09:43 AM
quote:
You may wonder why Smokin and I seem to disagree on this. We are looking at the horse from different angles. The ram air works great for what Smokin needs...it builds what pressure it makes quickly, within the 1/4 mile. For me, it is not so good because it doesn't build any more pressure at top speed...
Shane
Good input Shane. Kawi probably has a whole lot more customers that want and use the 1/4 mile and quick acceleration aspect of the zx-14 than they do land speed racers.
What could be done to increase the air pressure for your application under normal aspiration without going to a turbo?
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black zx14 - Brock's Gen3 Carbon, PCIII, no secondaries, Carrozzeria wheels, Sato rearsets, Pazzo levers, GPR V4 steering damper, Puig windscreen, Tiger Racing chain guard
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Shane661
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posted May 13, 2009 09:45 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 13 May 2009 17:46
quote:
Interesting. I was under the impression the boundry vorticies created in the walls of the naca duct increased velocity of the air entering with out disturbing the boundry layer on the body.
If they would have made it larger, in theory it would create pressure as the velocity of the low density air would create pressure in the smaller ram air ducts.
I noticed the preproduction bikes appeared to have larger naca ducts than the production models, but as we all know $ cost more than sense when production rolls around.
It is just the fact that it is a NACA duct. That type of duct is not designed to build maximum pressure. The reference link pretty much sums it up.
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Sticks_n_Stones
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posted May 13, 2009 09:46 AM
Did a bit more research. It appears that the boundary layer effect might actually be hurting other bikes, whereas with the naca duct that the 14 is more neutral as that boudary layer builds. Which would explain what I've seen in real life: 1000's, 1st gen Busa's, and one '08 Busa that I raced all seemed to be close or slightly pulled me below 130mph or so (Brocked PCIII 08 Busa, heavily modded 05 zx10 pulled me), but after that point the 14 seems to easily reel them in ('barely' reeled in the 08 Busa, but I regained my bike length at around 160mph).
Also explains the zx12 having that godawful ugly air intake sticking out infront of the fairings: it actually must have had a viable ramair???
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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Shane661
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posted May 13, 2009 09:53 AM
quote:
quote:
You may wonder why Smokin and I seem to disagree on this. We are looking at the horse from different angles. The ram air works great for what Smokin needs...it builds what pressure it makes quickly, within the 1/4 mile. For me, it is not so good because it doesn't build any more pressure at top speed...
Shane
Good input Shane. Kawi probably has a whole lot more customers that want and use the 1/4 mile and quick acceleration aspect of the zx-14 than they do land speed racers.
What could be done to increase the air pressure for your application under normal aspiration without going to a turbo?
The most simple thing to do would be to seal the system and remove obvious restrictions. I hope to do some testing this year.
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gilberjj
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posted May 13, 2009 10:00 AM
Greg at HPC (I know, that name is not respected here..... BUT) he is really big on completely sealing the air box. He says it makes a big difference for the LSR stuff.
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dubious
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posted May 13, 2009 10:05 AM
I was having a hrad look at the "water catcher" , the big sumps at the bottom of the ducts, before th last elbow into the box, and it made me think.... wow that has got tobe hurting the intake velocity.
It was obviously designed to create a low pressure area before the airbox, so that moisture would get knocked out, and picked up in gradual amounts when riding in rain, but probably not so good for performance purposes.
I am not an aeronautical engineer ( ggod thing i think!  ) so I do not know much about aerodynamics, other than what I have read over the years, however I am a Power Engineer and understand Psychrometrics pretty well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics
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gilberjj
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posted May 13, 2009 10:07 AM
I'm a pyromaniac and I understand fire and hairspray pretty well........
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dubious
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posted May 13, 2009 10:09 AM
mmmm... potato guns!
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natural selection.....
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gilberjj
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posted May 13, 2009 11:19 AM
Good news....... Sticks and I talked and we will be getting there around 9:30 AM. The dynoing starts at 10:00. I'll be running my bike as is, and then we'll take out my Rotella T 5w40 synthetic and be replacing it with some Mobil 1 0w20 and redynoing the bike. Sticks already has the 0w20 in his bike, and we'll see if the oil actually makes a difference on the dyno.
Sticks, let's both use 89 octane for the dyno, that way we both have the same gas. Chevron or Shell is fine for me, just tell me what you're using and that way we will attempt to make this as a direct comparison as possible.
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dubious
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posted May 13, 2009 11:22 AM
put straight 50 wt in it for him stix....LOL 
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Some are not worthy of the effort.
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gilberjj
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posted May 13, 2009 01:13 PM
haha...... sticks would do that too...... he's a tricky guy, and you have to watch him.......
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smokinZX14
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posted May 13, 2009 08:37 PM
quote:
Thanks Smokin, I never doubted that the ramair worked just didnt know if or how much extra fuel the computer added. Apparently not much needed. So if I get a custom map done I should make sure they dont go below 12.9 to 1?
Yes that is where Brock map his at ( 12.9.1) That was done at the track With an LM 2 I believe .. That was for 1/4 mile racing .. Brock upped the fuel a bit more for Maxton one mile runs ( Maxton Map ) And it helped him get 200 MPH on his zx14 ..
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Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
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posted May 13, 2009 08:59 PM
quote:
You may wonder why Smokin and I seem to disagree on this. We are looking at the horse from different angles. The ram air works great for what Smokin needs...it builds what pressure it makes quickly, within the 1/4 mile. For me, it is not so good because it doesn't build any more pressure at top speed...
Shane
I wasn't really disagreeing with you shane, Just that it's a better system than a Busa was my point...I agree that it can be made to work even better even for the 1/4 mile stuff ..There was a test a while back on the busa ram air and as tested it made no poss+ pressure at any speed .. While they did find some poss+ pressure in the zx10 they tested ..The zx10 is much the same as the zx14 as far as the inlet goes ....The zx14 as you know it is sealed very well for what it is but does have some drain holes for rain and some sumps for water to collect .. So i'm sure it can be better ... Since you are going LS racing this would be a good place for you to test and give us Info on any gains .. 
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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gilberjj
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posted May 14, 2009 01:57 AM
I can't wait to race and dyno my bike........ I'll bring my camera and we can race across the I-90 floating bridge. There is NOTHING greater then going WOT through a long tunnel. This is all in theory of course.......
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gilberjj
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posted May 15, 2009 10:52 AM
I am mentally preparing for tomorrow......... Sticks, bring your A game.
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Sticks_n_Stones
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posted May 15, 2009 11:09 AM
You're mentally preparing for a dyno shootout? lol
I'm gonna call you in a few Gilberjj
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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dubious
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posted May 15, 2009 11:27 AM
quote:
quote:
You may wonder why Smokin and I seem to disagree on this. We are looking at the horse from different angles. The ram air works great for what Smokin needs...it builds what pressure it makes quickly, within the 1/4 mile. For me, it is not so good because it doesn't build any more pressure at top speed...
Shane
I wasn't really disagreeing with you shane, Just that it's a better system than a Busa was my point...I agree that it can be made to work even better even for the 1/4 mile stuff ..There was a test a while back on the busa ram air and as tested it made no poss+ pressure at any speed .. While they did find some poss+ pressure in the zx10 they tested ..The zx10 is much the same as the zx14 as far as the inlet goes ....The zx14 as you know it is sealed very well for what it is but does have some drain holes for rain and some sumps for water to collect .. So i'm sure it can be better ... Since you are going LS racing this would be a good place for you to test and give us Info on any gains ..
I have ram air ducts to donate for modifying if anyone is interested in cutting the sumps off and smoothing them out. I think you would see noticable gains...
A sawsall, some plastic, plastic welder, or rivets and silicone is all it would take.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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gilberjj
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posted May 16, 2009 04:06 PM
Alright........ dyno day Ducati Seattle results!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sticks: 165.5
Gilberjj (with Rotella 5w40): 160.7
Gilberjj (with Mobil 1 0w20): 161.5
We went out on the street and I smoked Sticks, but he also weighs 120 more lbs then I do.
There was also another Brocks zx14 there that posted 160.6. Either both of us have Monday bikes compared to Sticks, or the Muzzy pipe just makes more hp across the board. Sticks has some great comparissons, but he won't be able to post them up for a while. I had a ton of fun, but it was a long day. Fun fun fun.
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LAB3
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posted May 16, 2009 04:13 PM
I told you Muzzy pipe M14 with tapered head pipes and a good map is a Great
street exhaust. The M10 head pipes was down 5 HP over the M14 head pipes on a ZX-14.
Brocks or Muzzy M14 Both are Great systems.
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gilberjj
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posted May 16, 2009 04:22 PM
^^^ agreed.
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Shane661
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posted May 16, 2009 05:07 PM
So, all the systems were running the same a/f #'s and fuel?
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smokinZX14
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posted May 16, 2009 05:09 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 17 May 2009 01:10
quote:
So, all the systems were running the same a/f #'s and fuel?
I bet not shane .. That's why the test is bullshit .... 
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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gilberjj
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posted May 16, 2009 05:21 PM
We both used 89 octane pump gas. No race gas in either bike. I posted up my a/f ratios last week and nothing changed. Flat 13:1 a/f. If muzzy's knows how to make more hp then 13:1 a/f, then they know more then everyone else. Sticks showed me his advancer, he was running the stock one in his bike.
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