bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 01:21 PM
Tested the valves with mineral spirits today and had leaks on valves 4, 5, 7, and 8 on the exhaust side.
So do I just order 4 exhaust valves, change them out and go?
  
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
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Posts: 13081
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posted April 06, 2009 06:05 PM
New valves, head gasket and hand lap the valves in (valve lapping compound and a hand lapper) measure twice and cut once then bolt everything together ... should be good. Btw do you see any valve contact marks on the pistons??
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 06:46 PM
Didn't see any marks on the piston when I got the head off but I still need to clean them to be sure.
I'm really not convinced that the valves hit anything yet, the cam was off 180 degrees so they shouldn't have been open with the pistons up, and feeling the same resistance with the cams off and valves closed to what looks like all the way, makes me wonder... but I've already demonstrated my poor mechanical skills and don't trust myself anymore.
I'm planning to put the head back on (with the old head gasket) and measure the clearances before I go further, if that shows bent valves then I'll take the head somewhere and let a trained mechanic do it so I don't dig the hole any deeper. If the clearances are good then I'll put the new head gasket on and button it back up and try to start it again. Should be able to get to that this weekend...
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted April 06, 2009 07:16 PM
You can bench test the head ...No need to put it back on to check the valve clearance ...Just install one cam at a time and rotate it and check ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 07:29 PM
quote:
You can bench test the head ...No need to put it back on to check the valve clearance ...Just install one cam at a time and rotate it and check ..
You just saved me a lot of work with that one! It didn't even occur to me to do that, I guess my noob is showing on this one.
What should I to turn the cam?
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 07:32 PM
That was supposed to say: What should I use to turn the cam?
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INTIMIDA2OR
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posted April 06, 2009 07:57 PM
quote:
Didn't see any marks on the piston when I got the head off but I still need to clean them to be sure.
quote:
I'm really not convinced that the valves hit anything yet, the cam was off 180 degrees so they shouldn't have been open with the pistons up, and feeling the same resistance with the cams off and valves closed to what looks like all the way, makes me wonder... but I've already demonstrated my poor mechanical skills and don't trust myself anymore.
Well there should be resistance either way, more so with the cams off cause the compression bleeds off when the valves open.
Plus you just adjusted the valves which were tight before , now they have clearance and the valves are staying closed a bit longer to hold the compression longer making the resistance greater than before.
With the cam timing off it puts a great load on the starter.
I'm planning to put the head back on (with the old head gasket) and measure the clearances before I go further, if that shows bent valves then I'll take the head somewhere and let a trained mechanic do it so I don't dig the hole any deeper. If the clearances are good then I'll put the new head gasket on and button it back up and try to start it again. Should be able to get to that this weekend...
If you clean the pistons you might get rid of any evidence of any contact that might have happened. All you need to look for are fresh half moon marks or rather 1/4 moons on the pistons .
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 08:05 PM
Well, I don't recall seeing any new marks when the head came off. I'll inspect it more closely in the morning, and I'll take pictures so you guys can judge it as well.
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pazx14rider
Zone Head
Posts: 953
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posted April 06, 2009 08:24 PM
If you dont see anymarks on those pistons I dont think you will find any bent valves. I have had many heads off over the years, and the burtnt crap on top looks like oil. If it was white it would be coolant. I looked at that picture of the head...the second or third clynder has a vavle thats wet around it. Check the valve seats for oil leaks around them. I would not even atttempt to reuse the head gasket. And if it were me i would deffinitely clean up those valves and tops of the pistons.Because what can happen when you fire the engine any loose debris can find it way to the valve seat, get pounded into the valve seat and cause and instant loss of compression on that clynder.
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Ozonkiller
Expert Class
Posts: 350
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posted April 06, 2009 08:30 PM
The exhaust valves possibly collided with the intake valves. Look for telltale signs on the corresponding intakes.
When you say that you had leakage around the exhaust valves, was it a lot or just a bit of seepage?
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INTIMIDA2OR
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posted April 06, 2009 08:41 PM
quote:
The exhaust valves possibly collided with the intake valves. Look for telltale signs on the corresponding intakes.
When you say that you had leakage around the exhaust valves, was it a lot or just a bit of seepage?
Oooh that's ugly if that happened! 
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 09:03 PM
The mineral spirits came out pretty quick on the valves that leaked, only took about 2 seconds to have it collecting at the end of the exhaust ports.
What sort of telltale signs should I see?
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INTIMIDA2OR
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posted April 07, 2009 12:40 AM
 Edited By: INTIMIDA2OR on 7 Apr 2009 08:41
Hmm .... looking at the pic of the valves , i see the some that look a little burnt (the ones that are the whitest) . They could be leaking cause they were the tightest and now they are burnt and leaking . Did you log which valves had what clearance? If you did and put 2 and 2 together you might find that the whitest ones were the tight ones and are the same ones that leaked in the test.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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Tool Man
Needs a job
Posts: 4493
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posted April 07, 2009 03:16 AM
quote:
Also I'd love something like "day school", may help me avoid situations like the one I created for myself this time.
This is day school..........
Nite classes involve .........drinking 
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The banks are failing..
The banks are failing...
Invest in Ammo
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BIGZXDADDY
Expert Class
Posts: 270
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posted April 07, 2009 09:29 AM
quote:
Tested the valves with mineral spirits today and had leaks on valves 4, 5, 7, and 8 on the exhaust side.
So do I just order 4 exhaust valves, change them out and go?
that would be odd to bend one paired valve but not the other from piston contact. were the cams installed when you did the fluid test?if so i would remove them and retest. i prefer to put the head on a stand and fill the ports cuz it makes it easier to tell which valves are leaking. any leakage is a problem, if they can't hold static fluid they can't hold running compression. if you do have bent valves you can change them out and go, but retest before installing the cams. when ever you have the cam chain off its a good practice to turn the crankshaft two complete revolutions with the spark plugs removed and recheck your timing marks
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"never drive faster than you can see, besides it's all in the reflexes"
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pissear
Expert Class
Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted April 07, 2009 03:16 PM
I doubt you made an extreme shim change to set the valve so deep into the head. I would like to see what other idea you have that is normal one tooth off/valve hits piston scenario you have?
Yes, change the valves, check the guides for cracks. If it calls for valve guide seals, replace those.
Always use a new head gasket. just like a drain plug gasket, it will crush out. Do you see how narrow a gap is to the other cylinder hole? A new gasket is thicker so the heat does not start eating a hole at so narrow an area. Good insurance unless it is racing where you tear down the engine to monitor things.
Here comes the controversy. For one, the valve seats are already cut, have low mileage, were not part of the damage, so the install the intakes without compound cutting. A mirror finish to a mirror finish hold better seal. Why scratch the finish.
Pg. 5-32 says to not grind any compound or remove the oxide layer, which will shorten life and all that. You do not need compound for new valves. Lube stem, guide and install.
Too bad you did not mark the tooth to chain link. Maybe a little noise being a new wear pattern on the chain to tooth. Plus, I would not trust a torsional change of the head being installed , then torqued to where you static check the shims with head on the bench.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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ratbyk
Expert Class
Posts: 179
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posted April 07, 2009 03:37 PM
When you are checking valve clearances with the head on the bench, make sure that the head is spaced up off the bench. As you rotate the cams the valves will open beyond the edge of the combustion chamber and bend them selves contacting the bench. Just a couple of pieces of 2"X4" on the ends holding the head up off the bench will do it.
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pissear
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posted April 08, 2009 08:56 AM
When they bore a cylinder, they use the exact bolts that will be used to lock the head down. You have a bump cam that will distort the head on that load. So if it were locked down so no head would flex on it's own is when you set your valves and I set mine.
Mine will be the same measurement and we both ran through all the same shim changes. Who would be more accurate if we roll up to the line and you never checked yours when the head is on and now redo the valve is one is off.
I would not run bolts in and out of that head all those times if once or twice did it with head in place and you are loading the head threads more than needed. Just a thought.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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INTIMIDA2OR
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posted April 08, 2009 11:03 PM
quote:
put it back together and then go blow the soot out of it! prolly not hurt.
I'm with ya on that one brotha! 
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 10, 2009 12:27 PM
Checked the clearances again and had larger measurements on every Fn one, so the head is with a mechanic now. He's going to pull all the valves, be sure they are bent, and replace the bent ones. He offered to set clearances for me when he's done also. Worst case it will cost me $800-$1,000 if all the valves need replacing (unless valve guides, etc are bad too). So much for saving money doing my own maintenance huh!
On the plus side, I get to clean all the crap off the pistons and valves, change my coolant, and finally add that muzzy radiator fan I bought a year ago and never installed because I'd have to take off too much crap to get to it. Once it gets running again I'll feel better knowing all that was done.
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reevesmreeves
Expert Class
Posts: 147
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posted April 10, 2009 05:36 PM
who'd you get to work on your bike simon?
everybody i've heard brags on edgar at jackson motor sports. i'll probably talk to him about doing mine on the side to save some $$$ on dealer fees.
hate to hear your project went sour. i spent all day putting on a rear sprocket because i rounded off two of the 5 shoulder nuts. i finally wound up getting them off with a pipe wrench after breaking two different size socket wrenches! needless to say, got gear didn't have replacements. even the smallest jobs can be the biggest pain in the ass! can't wait to see how the front sprocket and full exhaust is going to treat me in the coming weeks.
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06 red 14
06 se 636
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INTIMIDA2OR
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posted April 10, 2009 07:19 PM
Sounds like it is a learning experience . I like those myself ,but why are they always expensive experiences lol !?
Keep us updated on his findings.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 10, 2009 09:18 PM
I gave it to Mark at Cycle Service in Pearl. I've used him a few times with other stuff and he's always done good work. He tends to be a little slower though so I'll prob be without for a while but as long as it gets done right I'm happy.
I'll keep you guys updated of course. I'm going to take pics of the timing marks later and post them up. I want to be 100% sure I get it right next time I put it together!
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pissear
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posted April 11, 2009 04:43 AM
Naaaaaa, If at some time down the road this internet medium gets cranking, you can just click your web cam up in the garage and we could watch your every move. Be cool to see you could do this on your own... You were almost there! Cost me to learn too. Call it a learning experience, where you do not want to have too many of those under your belt. < That is used to hold your wallet up in your pants < Is where you took it < INN DaShorts.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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