bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 04, 2009 03:58 PM
What did I mess up?
Ok, adjusted the valves, buttoned everything back up, tried to start and got one revolution maybe and it quit, starter couldn't turn it anymore. Turned it by hand a couple times, noticed its easy to turn, then it's hard for a second, then it gets easy again, which I thought was relatively normal but it doesn't seem as smooth as before (the hard part is harder and the easy part easier it seems like).
When I put the cams back in I checked everything 2-4 times, counted 30 pins on the cam chain at TDC with the marks lined up, valve clearances were all in spec, so I put it all back together and now nada. I saw something in the manual about applying moly oil to a new cam but I didn't since it isn't a new one. I did oil it a bit however. I installed the cam chain tensioner like it said in the manual. Added washers to the valve cover so it wouldn't seep oil anymore.
What should I check and please tell me I didn't screw this up big time.
  
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted April 04, 2009 04:26 PM
Sounds like the cams are 180 degrees out of time ... Nothing bad , just yo gotta tear into her again and reset the timing.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 04, 2009 05:11 PM
That's good to hear, except for having to take all that crap off again.
Just so I understand what happened, how were all the valves in spec if the cams are off? I'm actually suprised to hear they are off 180 degrees, lined the crank up to TDC on re-install so maybe I read the marks on the cams wrong?
Thanks for the help, this is my first endeavor into the engine so this is all new to me.
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 04, 2009 06:09 PM
Is it possible I bent valves on this one?
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Bigbore4
Zone Head
Posts: 806
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posted April 04, 2009 07:56 PM
YES!!!!
If you turned it by hand and stopped when you felt resistance, probly would have been ok.
With the starter, you can bet it did some damage.
Don't take this personal, but being a mechanic is not as simple as some people will tell you.
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted April 04, 2009 08:51 PM
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted April 04, 2009 10:48 PM
Was the pistons at TDC when you installed the cams?
The cams can be perfectly timed to each other and not be timed to the crank at TDC.
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 05, 2009 02:32 AM
Yes, the pistons were at TDC. What's strange is that after I got the cams in and re-checked clearances there didn't seem to be any problems, it turned like it was supposed to and the valve clearances were good. Is there anything else that would cause this?
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pissear
Expert Class
Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted April 05, 2009 03:47 AM
 Edited By: pissear on 5 Apr 2009 11:49
You are a tooth off. The bent valve has happened the second you touched the starter button. She bent the valve, you turn the crank around almost 360° until the piston hits the valve, cocks the piston like as it hits one side of the pocket and there is your pant$ pockets$ bringing out the new valve and gasket/radiator coolant/she's a mess.
Do not mess up next time is reverse the crank then time your marks going forward to see if they line up. I think the way you have described it perfectly is my guess is you timed a tooth off, tagged a valve and bent it her over. < You're Fucked!
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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TooHype
Expert Class
Go Hard or Go Home !!
Posts: 427
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posted April 05, 2009 06:54 AM
quote:
Do not mess up next time is reverse the crank then time your marks going forward to see if they line up. I think the way you have described it perfectly is my guess is you timed a tooth off, tagged a valve and bent it her over. < You're Fucked!
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Go Hard or Go Home !!....2007 Diablo Black ZX-14, BMC Race Filter, Brock's Alien Head, Brock's Radial Mount Strap, PClll with Custom Map, Flies removed, Muzzy fan, Muzzy lowering links, Muzzy Fender Eliminator, 16/41, Speedohealer, Stretched 6", Lowered 3" IN GOD I TRUST !......If You’re a Hater….KILLYASELF !!
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eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
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posted April 05, 2009 09:55 AM
THAT'S why I don't fuck with any of that shit... I send it to someone that does, bc that kind of stuff happens to me. I know just enough about all that to get me into deep trouble
____________
Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 05, 2009 05:42 PM
Alright, had a couple of friends over and got back into it today and found that I had the exhaust cam lined up on the wrong mark, opposite from the correct one so I guess it was close to 180 degrees off. Was still getting resistance with the cams off and spark plugs out so we pulled the head off to have a look...
Dont see any obviously bent valves
Lots of crap on the pistons though, didn't expect that
So how should I check the valves if none of them are obviously off? I was wondering also if the crud on the pistons may have been hitting at TDC, causing the resistance we felt with the cams and plugs out. The crank turns freely with the head off.
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted April 05, 2009 05:53 PM
Edited By: bigdtd on 6 Apr 2009 01:53
put it back together and then go blow the soot out of it! prolly not hurt.
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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Tool Man
Needs a job
Posts: 4493
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posted April 05, 2009 06:02 PM
Did you do a compression check before you took it apart?
After you de-carb those heads (clean) you could put some light wt oil in the valve pocket and see if any leaks by the valves by shining a flashlight down the port. If it does its bent for sure.
As long as you have it this far apart I would clean up the ports of any casting marks and pull the valves and check for run out (bent) at the valve head
Do not attempt if your not sure how 
____________
The banks are failing..
The banks are failing...
Invest in Ammo
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Ozonkiller
Expert Class
Posts: 350
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posted April 05, 2009 06:34 PM
It's a shame that you didn't check the valve clearances again before you took it apart. If you've bent any of the valves, it will reveal itself as having way to much clearance. If all of the clearances are good, then you dodged a bullet and you're good to go.
For the carbon, run a couple tanks of Seafoam. I reluctantly tried some a couple years back and "I'll be go to hell" the stuff works.
Some of us guys who can do this stuff, I'm sure, would be more than happy to teach and supervise those who want to learn. That's a very common scene on the BMW web sites.
My wife calls it "Day School" when my friends come over to work on their bikes.
Good luck. I hope it works out OK
Tom
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 05, 2009 07:05 PM
Yeah, I was going to re-install the cams and check but since I was getting resistance with them out I figured the valves weren't closing all the way.
I'll give the oil (heard mineral spirits work also) in the compression chamber to check that they're seating properly, hope they do. So if any gets past the valve it needs to be replaced correct?
Have you guys ever had carbon build up in the pistons cause resistance like I was having? It felt like I was hitting something hard, then it just let go. Happened every time 1/4 TDC came around with and without the cams. Before I pulled the cams I looked at the lobes and they weren't depressing the valves on 1 or 4 but I didn't measure clearances then because the resistance hit just before TDC and I didn't want to keep pushing it past and damage anything further.
Thanks for the help so far.
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Bawls
Needs a job
re-learning to ride
Posts: 2701
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posted April 05, 2009 07:16 PM
Lie to your wife and tell her that you need new cams, valves, and it needs to be machined. Buy a set of cams, springs, valves, and have it ported. 
____________
Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 05, 2009 07:17 PM
Also I'd love something like "day school", may help me avoid situations like the one I created for myself this time.
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 05, 2009 07:21 PM
quote:
Lie to your wife and tell her that you need new cams, valves, and it needs to be machined. Buy a set of cams, springs, valves, and have it ported.
Haha, I actually thought about this being the perfect time for all that, unfortunately I'm doing this myself to save money (screwing it up changed that part a bit) so cheapest is best and if it aint broke I won't be fixing it this time around.
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pissear
Expert Class
Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted April 05, 2009 10:23 PM
They do not give you room to bore that thing, do they? Run brake clean down the ports, see who is leaking. Tilt the head so the valve face is horizontal, the liquid settles all the way around, lift it up in the air and look for a leak.
Compression check would have been a bad move. A leak-down is the only way to hold the crank from spinning any more damage.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted April 06, 2009 04:43 AM
Edited By: BobC on 6 Apr 2009 12:43
quote:
Alright, had a couple of friends over and got back into it today and found that I had the exhaust cam lined up on the wrong mark, opposite from the correct one so I guess it was close to 180 degrees off. Was still getting resistance with the cams off and spark plugs out so we pulled the head off to have a look...
Dont see any obviously bent valves
So how should I check the valves if none of them are obviously off? I was wondering also if the crud on the pistons may have been hitting at TDC, causing the resistance we felt with the cams and plugs out. The crank turns freely with the head off.
Did you take the valves out of the head and roll the stems on a surface table?
That's the only way you will know for sure that none are bent.
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 06:21 AM
Can the head gasket be re-used by any chance?
I don't have the tools to pull the valves right now, if any of them fail the oil test then I suppose I'll be tool shopping...
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bigtallguy
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted April 06, 2009 06:34 AM
Will this tool work for it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120366188743&viewitem=
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pissear
Expert Class
Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted April 06, 2009 07:35 AM
quote:
Don't take this personal, but being a mechanic is not as simple as some people will tell you.
Think water is think air. Rolling a valve on a surface plate or spun in a drill press is not about to show you the sealing of the head like a liquid can.
I could piss in the ports is have better luck knowing if that needs a Depends if the valve is bent is liquid check it is not rocket science. OK, maybe a little.
So, Lay the moon lander on a surface plate, tell me if the oxygen will seep out the window rolling the rocket on a landing pad, or do I piss around the window and someone check for leaks on the other side is that work for you?
____________
way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted April 06, 2009 08:41 AM
Edited By: NINJA12 on 6 Apr 2009 16:43
Bolt the head back on with no cams and do a leak-down. use the old gasket!
listen to the intake and exhaust ports for air escaping.
you don't need snap-on tools for this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CYLINDER-LEAK-DOWN-TESTER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a1Q7c39Q3a2Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem170316861256QQitemZ170316861256QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools
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