Ninja_Knight
Zone Head
Posts: 666
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posted March 25, 2009 09:54 AM
A question about torquing.
How necessary is it to torque the drain bolt to 22 ft/lbs and the oil filter to 23 ft/lbs as it says in the service manual? I am doing my first oil change at 1700, and switching to Rotella Synthetic, and I figured I would simply tighten the drain plug a slight bit past tight, and do the same thing with the filter. Is there really a need to get a torque wrench to do an oil change? Money is kind of tight for me right now. As usual your opinions are greatly valued.
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2009 B&O Special Edition, Brock's CF Gen 3 Exhaust, Dark Smoke ZG Double Bubble Windshield, PCIII, Muzzy Fan, Heli Risers, Throttlemeister Heavy, Nautilus Stebel Horn, Waiting on HID's and Tinted Signal Lens
  
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Old Guy
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted March 25, 2009 10:16 AM
I've never torqued my drain plug. Usually over tighten it honestly. I replace the washer about every third drain. It gets flattened by my overtightening.
Spin on Napa filters 3/4 turn after contact.
Wire bolt and hose clamped filter though hole I drilled in tab in front of plug. Plug drilled also.
Did this for track days. Find I enjoy knowing nothing will come loose and lube back tire!
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Living the good life...,
On a XZ !!!!!
Tsukigi stainless full system
pcIII w/custom map
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GP suspension forks
Penske rear shock
Rich's custom seat
And a whole bunch of other stuff.
97 zx6r full race bike with all the
good stuff
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Rook
Pro
Posts: 1125
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posted March 25, 2009 01:25 PM
I would just make it good & tight. I used a 10 - 90'lb torque wrench last oil change and tightened to spec. It was way too tight. The gasket was squashed and stuck on the threads of plug. I grabbed it with a vise grips and threaded it off. Good thing I had a replacement gasket.
I used a 0 - 75'lb flex-beam torque wrench and went to ~20'lbs. It felt a lot more reasonable. Not nearly as tight as the 10 - 90 foot pounder. They say torque wrenches are accurate closer to the middle of their range. Personally, I'm not going to torque most things as tight as spec anymore because with the torque wrenches I have, it often seems way too tight. I believe using a torque wrench requires judgment unless you have a super expensive proffessional grade torque wrench.
I think if you know what 20lbs, 50lbs, 70 lbs feels like hanging off the end of your wrench, you can do a pretty good job torquing with a normal wrench.
Rook
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Bad in Black
Expert Class
Posts: 348
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posted March 25, 2009 02:26 PM
 Edited By: Bad in Black on 25 Mar 2009 22:27
quote:
How necessary is it to torque the drain bolt to 22 ft/lbs and the oil filter to 23 ft/lbs as it says in the service manual? I am doing my first oil change at 1700, and switching to Rotella Synthetic, and I figured I would simply tighten the drain plug a slight bit past tight, and do the same thing with the filter. Is there really a need to get a torque wrench to do an oil change? Money is kind of tight for me right now. As usual your opinions are greatly valued.
I don't use a torque wrench often , but always use them on oil drain bolts. With a drain bolt your tightening a bolt into soft threaded aluminum thats covered with oil. What feels fine hand tightening on dry threads is totally diff on oil soaked threads....wayyy easy to overtighten  Over time, overtightening your drain bolt will stretch the soft threads in the pan....and down the road you can have probs
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Rook
Pro
Posts: 1125
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posted March 25, 2009 07:43 PM
Edited By: Rook on 26 Mar 2009 03:59
quote:
.....I figured I would simply tighten the drain plug a slight bit past tight, and do the same thing with the filter......
I've always heard hand tight on the oil filter and then 1/4 turn more. I've done this every oil change on the 14 and last bike and it has never leaked. Don't muscle it too much on the hand tight. Just one hand about as tight as wringing out a towel, then wrench another 1/4 turn. If you're really grunting, you probabley have it tight enough without the wrench 1/4 turn. If you over-tighten the filter it will be a beotch to get off next time.
It's always good to rub a film of oil on the gasket before installation. Run the new oil and look underneath for leaks.....tighten up plug or filter only if you should see some dripping.
I use a strap type filter wrench with a flexible joint in the handle and it works pretty good. I think the correct sized filter socket would work well with a short extension and that is the only thing to use if the filter won't come off. A strap wrench will crush a stuck filter.
Rook
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Ninja_Knight
Zone Head
Posts: 666
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posted March 25, 2009 09:47 PM
Cool. I think I will do what you say Rook, but I will take what everyone says into concern and make sure I do it carefully. Especially in the beginning. I have to admit I find myself excited to do my first oil change. It is not the first oil change on the bike but the first one I am doing personally.
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2009 B&O Special Edition, Brock's CF Gen 3 Exhaust, Dark Smoke ZG Double Bubble Windshield, PCIII, Muzzy Fan, Heli Risers, Throttlemeister Heavy, Nautilus Stebel Horn, Waiting on HID's and Tinted Signal Lens
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Ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted March 25, 2009 10:38 PM
I've only ever had one oil filter of any kind get loose.....and it was on the 14. So I go A LITTLE more than I usually would.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted March 26, 2009 01:25 AM
Edited By: BobC on 26 Mar 2009 09:26
The washers for the oil drain plug are not exactly expensive. If you are worried about it coming loose then why not drill it and use some lock-wire?
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Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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Rook
Pro
Posts: 1125
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posted March 26, 2009 09:12 AM
Loosing all your oil at once would definitely be catastrofic. However, if the filter or the drain plug ever came loose, It seems pretty unlikely that it would just drop out and drain the system. It would surely leak slowly at first. We should be able to avoid losing a lot of oil from a leak if we check the sight glass before every start and keep an eye on the warning lights/multifunc meter for low oil display.
Rook
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Ninja_Knight
Zone Head
Posts: 666
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posted March 26, 2009 09:26 AM
Edited By: Ninja_Knight on 26 Mar 2009 17:30
quote:
I've never torqued my drain plug. Usually over tighten it honestly. I replace the washer about every third drain. It gets flattened by my overtightening.
Spin on Napa filters 3/4 turn after contact.
I know this is a stupid question but do I need to buy special washers for the drain plug, or can I just take one to Lowe's and match it there? Up until this thread I did not even know I had to change the washer every other oil change.
Edit: Quoted the wrong post.
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2009 B&O Special Edition, Brock's CF Gen 3 Exhaust, Dark Smoke ZG Double Bubble Windshield, PCIII, Muzzy Fan, Heli Risers, Throttlemeister Heavy, Nautilus Stebel Horn, Waiting on HID's and Tinted Signal Lens
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Rook
Pro
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posted March 26, 2009 10:28 AM
Edited By: Rook on 26 Mar 2009 18:30
Actually, I think that's a very smart question, KN. Stupid is not asking when you sense the need to. It's a little embarssing but, I always ask, no matter how routine the procedure.
I do not think a steel washer from Lowe's would work because it would be too hard. The one on the drain plug is aluminum. I believe it is meant to compress a tiny bit to seal when you tighten the plug.
I'm sure the proper procedure is to use a fresh drain plug gasket at every oil change but I have used them 3-4 times and never had a drip on this bike or my last Kawi. The gasket did lock onto the threads of my drain plug the last time however and this probabley was due to it having been squashed 3 times before( and I think I went a little tight on the plug, too). If you reuse it and you see a depression on one side, that is from the back of the head of the drain plug. It would probabley be best to keep the flat/smooth side of the gasket against the oil pan.
Last time I was at the dealership they gave me a drain plug gasket free after I made a large purchase. If you go in and ask for one, They might charge you $1.50?? Maybe the parts guy will be in a good mood and give you one. If you get a fresh one hang on to the old gasket cuz you definitely can reuse them once or twice and you never know when you might need one in a pinch.
Rook
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted March 26, 2009 10:31 AM
You can get the gaskets at Advance or AutoZone in copper or aluminum.
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Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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Rook
Pro
Posts: 1125
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posted March 26, 2009 11:22 AM
Edited By: Rook on 26 Mar 2009 19:45
A little more info for ya since it's your first DIY oil change on the 14.
I just checked my drain plug using a 3/8" ratchet and it came loose with out pulling too awful hard. I think the 0 - 75 lb beam torque wrench I picked up at Sears for ~$20 is prob pretty acurate at low torque values such as 20 - 30 'lbs. You can use a regular wrench if you know what the force of 20-25 lbs feels like hanging off the tip of the wrench handle. Just remember, after the head of the drain plug makes good contact with the gasket, you have begun to compress the gasket. Also remember Bad's coments about overtightening the aluminum threads of the oil pan. You can always go and feel the plug for tightness after a short ride. I think that's safer than tightening the crap out of it.
The proper sized socket for the drain plug is 17mm. The 18mm feels like it almost fits but it is too big.
Another thing---and I know you probabley already know---don't do any untorqueing/torqueing with the bike on the rear stand --- at least I wouldn't -- especially not horizontal torque like the oil drain plug. I've always done oil changes with bike on side stand on level surface. You can sit on the bike to raise it to verticle and dump every last drop if you want.
I used 4 liters (1 gallon) and a few more ounces from a quart bottle of oil and a fresh filter last time and that seemed to bring the level to just about perfect.
If you had this done at the shop, I doubt anyone would think of half of the stuff we're discussing here. I think you're in good shape but don't hesitate to ask more questions when something looks like it might be wrong.
Rook
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Rook
Pro
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posted March 26, 2009 11:48 AM
Now I have a question:
Which is better, draining the oil cold and uncirculated, or getting the motor good and warm first and maybe not getting everything that clings up inside the motor?
Rook
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eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
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posted March 26, 2009 01:19 PM
Ialways change it when the motor is warm, the oil is thinner and I'd think it gets all the oil out. Haven't thought about any particles...
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Rook
Pro
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posted March 26, 2009 01:59 PM
I've always done oil change after getting the engine hot for exactly that reason. I imagine it would help to stir up any sediment so that it would not stick to the bottom of the pan, too. Only thing is, if you just ran the motor, I imagine it could take hours for every bit of oil to run back down to the drain hole. Mine usually sits and drains about twenty-thirty minutes and i call it empty.
Rook
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Ninja_Knight
Zone Head
Posts: 666
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posted March 27, 2009 06:01 AM
That's all great info, and Rook, thanks so much for the details. I learned quite a bit. I would have tried to tighten the plug on the rear stand and ended-up with it on its side, or something.
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2009 B&O Special Edition, Brock's CF Gen 3 Exhaust, Dark Smoke ZG Double Bubble Windshield, PCIII, Muzzy Fan, Heli Risers, Throttlemeister Heavy, Nautilus Stebel Horn, Waiting on HID's and Tinted Signal Lens
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Rook
Pro
Posts: 1125
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posted March 27, 2009 08:12 PM
No prob. We'll learn what we can and can't do on the stand. I heard that tip one day a long time back and remembered it. For now, I'm breaking any bolts free with the bike on the side stand.
You ever break that rear axle nut free? That sucker is on there tight. You'll need a long breaker bar. Forget about the tool they give you in your tool kit. I go to Advance Auto and rent their metric axle socket set. $40 and they give it all back when you return the sockets. I heard a regular socket could split under that torque (I think it's 90 something pounds).
Post a thread when you tighten the chain. It's important to develop a feel for correct tension. Definitely DO NOT want too tight. I have a million tips on oil changes and chain tightening......and that's about all I'm an expert on. LOL. and I know how to pull flies.......but I don't feel that is necessary on a G2. More just for psychological reasons.  )
Rook
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pissear
Expert Class
Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted March 27, 2009 08:49 PM
I have seen that aluminum crush washer fold over the round or curl over part of the bolt, become as thin as paper or thinner and still seal that oil tank/sump plug hole.
What I do is use a fresh aluminum washer, sneak up on it till I can fell the soft sheer of the washer begin to flatten, I stop.
I tried working on cars for about 5 years and the Honda car mechanics would weaken the drain threads out of the oil pans and that is how scary it was to band-aid that sad car back up is someone has no clue how to tighten a drain plug. This has been my experience at the dealer level.
When I know I am going to drain the oil, I laid out a spot all ready to have a drain pan and 17mm handy; where I break the bolt loose, slide the pan under the bike, spin the bolt off with rubber glove on. I have a clean sheet of copy paper or yellow legal pad is longer and easier to reach; but I have a magnifier, a hot dab of oil that is flowing out. This is to inspect for carbon and more for crank bearing material about to send the bottom end in the dumpster.
My helmet is off for the work but now I literally remove my jacket is that fast, waste no time. I want that oil out within minutes of dismount.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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Rook
Pro
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posted March 28, 2009 07:48 AM
Ah, the wisdom - the vast wisdom that doth issue forth from the bard mechanic that is pissear.
Damm good to hear from you pissear (Hub). Congrats on YOUR forum, "Ask Hub." I think it's a great idea. I'll have to drop by with some questions now and then ----and just to say, HEY.
Rook
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Rook
Pro
Posts: 1125
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posted March 28, 2009 07:56 AM
quote:
You can get the gaskets at Advance or AutoZone in copper or aluminum.
Thanks. I'll check. Wish I had a drainplug and OEM washer to bring with me to compare. Too late now. Maybe I'll just eyeball it.
Rook
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