dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted March 21, 2009 06:38 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 22 Mar 2009 02:43
Another turbo 14 burns pistons ...
Nope, not mine.
I know of another 14 Cyclelogic kit that just burned the pistons this weekend, making 9 psi with no timing pulled.....on pump fuel
I am thinking Bob was right on the money with 5 degree's pulled after 7psi
Just a heads up for anyone else out there
JDC, are you pulling timing on your bike....?
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
  
|
serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
|
posted March 21, 2009 06:43 PM
hey where did you get those counter balance shafts. im sure you got your crank rods etc balanced. Are you going to block the oil passage. Thinking of doing the same thing but also lighten the crank
|
Ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
|
posted March 21, 2009 08:17 PM
9 w/ stock timing - they were asking for it......
____________
2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted March 21, 2009 08:28 PM
Edited By: dubious on 22 Mar 2009 04:32
quote:
hey where did you get those counter balance shafts. im sure you got your crank rods etc balanced. Are you going to block the oil passage. Thinking of doing the same thing but also lighten the crank
clemms cycle makes the shafts... $60 removes 4.5 lbs of rotating mass.
The crank and rotating assembly is balanced.
The shafts block the oil passage and the side benefit is increased oil pressure (and added flow)
I am not lightening the crank, I think it will need traction, and the motor will spin very quick with the stock crank.
If I was naturally aspirated, I would definately lighten the crank.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted March 21, 2009 08:31 PM
www.clemskawasaki.com
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 22, 2009 01:23 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Mar 2009 09:23
9 psi, no timing pulled....and pump? 
|
duncan
Expert Class
Posts: 341
|
posted March 22, 2009 04:40 AM
Was that with stock compression? Buddy of mine has an 08 stage1 Mr turbo running 9lbs but with low compression turbo pistons. No timing pulled either. He runs the absolute piss out of this bike{trying to keep up with mine...lol}...Colby Adams installed and tuned this kit and it's a nice set up.
|
duncan
Expert Class
Posts: 341
|
posted March 22, 2009 04:42 AM
One more thing He has h2o injection come on via a hobbs switch set at 5 psi.
|
Evilsports
Expert Class
Posts: 119
|
posted March 22, 2009 05:27 AM
Pistons were melted on the dyno during the initial tune. Stock compression, 91 octane. There were fueling issues compounding things from what I'm told. PCIII running 80+ duty cycle at 60 psi, fuel regulator was dialed up and negligible increase in fuel pressure.
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted March 22, 2009 05:41 AM
Edited By: ninja12 on 22 Mar 2009 13:43
Finally people are starting to share turbo tuning infomation.
I burned my pistons at 8 psi on pump.
You must be careful on the dyno because the ECU kills fire when you hit the
SPEED limiter which will give you a rich reading. We know what happens if
you remove to much fuel.
Be sure to get a speedohealer of shave the sprocket nut before you go.
|
Ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
|
posted March 22, 2009 08:09 AM
quote:
One more thing He has h2o injection come on via a hobbs switch set at 5 psi.
Even with that it is safer to just take what extra power it will give AFTER you make the motor safe to run w/o it.....b/c if it fails...............too late.....
Racing is a balance of safety(for the motor) and max power. If you are not racing for big money or have sponsors I don't see why one would take the extra risk.
____________
2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 22, 2009 08:15 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Mar 2009 16:17
No offense to the tuners, but what were they thinking with that setup? The 14 already has high compression for a Turbo motor, then 9 psi...and 91 octance pump...with no timing pulled????
Conservative is the key word with stock motors and turbo's, imo...
Crazy....
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted March 22, 2009 08:29 AM
Edited By: dubious on 22 Mar 2009 16:35
Couldn't get the linkage to adjust down to 7 psi. yes other fueling issues.
Timing must be pulled beyond 7psi on stock compression regardless, and never exceed 80% duty cycle. NEVER.
There are new high impedence injectors out ther that will allow you to exceed 80%... but not the stock injectors
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
duncan
Expert Class
Posts: 341
|
posted March 22, 2009 12:41 PM
To what lb of boost are the stock injectors good for? Dubious on the busa as long as you keep the duty cycle below 90-95% no lockup will occure.
Does anybody else here run water injection or an intercooler on there setups?
Also power wise as well as reliability (I know it's expensive) lower the compression. You can apply more boost safely.
|
Ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
|
posted March 22, 2009 01:14 PM
quote:
To what lb of boost are the stock injectors good for?
Does anybody else here run water injection or an intercooler on there setups?
7psi stock is fine....some go to 9, but I would not. PSI is not the issue, but flowrate.
http://www.snowperformance.net/
____________
2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted March 22, 2009 02:47 PM
quote:
Also power wise as well as reliability (I know it's expensive) lower the compression. You can apply more boost safely.
yeap ..and when you lower that comp you lower that HP and then need more boost to make-up the HP and you then find you need an intercooler ..
i've been both ways ..and low comp high boost suxs azz ..
if you just gonna dragrace a bike stock motor only way to go .. if boom you can find a replacement cheap and no build time just install and go ..
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted March 22, 2009 02:48 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 22 Mar 2009 22:50
quote:
quote:
Also power wise as well as reliability (I know it's expensive) lower the compression. You can apply more boost safely.
yeap ..and when you lower that comp you lower that HP and then need more boost to make-up the HP and you then find you need an intercooler .. and JE FORGED TURBO PISTONS MELT just like stockers
i've been both ways ..and low comp high boost suxs azz ..
if you just gonna dragrace a bike stock motor only way to go .. if boom you can find a replacement cheap and no build time just install and go ..
ON THE STREET YOU LEARN QUICK LEADED FUEL IS YOUR FREIND FOR MOTOR LIFE
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
Bad in Black
Expert Class
Posts: 348
|
posted March 22, 2009 04:28 PM
Edited By: Bad in Black on 23 Mar 2009 00:29
quote:
Pistons were melted on the dyno during the initial tune. Stock compression, 91 octane. There were fueling issues compounding things from what I'm told. PCIII running 80+ duty cycle at 60 psi, fuel regulator was dialed up and negligible increase in fuel pressure.
Most of the lower boost 14 turbo's I've heard of having motor probs seem to have mostly been blown up on a dyno, or had mechanical probs (bad injectors/fuel pumps/fmu's). It seems like dyno tuning your turbo at an iffy shop is the biggest danger of all
Like 1Bad has said, get an afr gauge/data logger along with fuel pressure/boost gauges. And be damn sure you have a dyno tuner who actually knows how to tune a turbo bike.............not some yahoo who "thinks" he can  I'm gonna take the safe base map that came with my kit, and gradually fine tune it myself....with no hard running till its set up/working/running an afr I'm comfy with. There's no local shops I'd trust to to tune a turbo....and I aint havin' some yahoo blow my bike up, then tell me it was a problem with my bike, and I gotta eat thousands in damages. I've heard that happen to quite a few turbo bikes of all diff makes  
|
duncan
Expert Class
Posts: 341
|
posted March 22, 2009 04:47 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Also power wise as well as reliability (I know it's expensive) lower the compression. You can apply more boost safely.
yeap ..and when you lower that comp you lower that HP and then need more boost to make-up the HP and you then find you need an intercooler .. and JE FORGED TURBO PISTONS MELT just like stockers
i've been both ways ..and low comp high boost suxs azz ..
if you just gonna dragrace a bike stock motor only way to go .. if boom you can find a replacement cheap and no build time just install and go ..
ON THE STREET YOU LEARN QUICK LEADED FUEL IS YOUR FREIND FOR MOTOR LIFE
I totally disagree. With a small turbo that wicks up fast more boost far surpasses the HP you lose in low compression. I've owned 3 turbo busas with three different turbos on each. 35r was terrible on the street and as you say "sux azz". 3076r was much bettor but still laged to much. I'm currently running a 2871r dual bb and it spools at 2200 rpms and is at full boost (22 lbs) by 5500 rpms. Granted even with a spacer plate to lower the comp I still have to run c-16 to run those boost levels. On pump gas I can run 10 lbs(with h2o injection), if I ran stock compression and no h2o injection 6 lbs max...I could pull some timing but that hurts HP as well, although like lowering the compression i'd make up for it and then some with more "BOOOOOSSSSSSSTTTTT"
|
1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
|
posted March 22, 2009 07:30 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 23 Mar 2009 03:33
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Also power wise as well as reliability (I know it's expensive) lower the compression. You can apply more boost safely.
LIFE
I totally disagree. With a small turbo that wicks up fast more boost far surpasses the HP you lose in low compression. I've owned 3 turbo busas with three different turbos on each. 35r was terrible on the street and as you say "sux azz". 3076r was much bettor but still laged to much. I'm currently running a 2871r dual bb and it spools at 2200 rpms and is at full boost (22 lbs) by 5500 rpms. Granted even with a spacer plate to lower the comp I still have to run c-16 to run those boost levels. On pump gas I can run 10 lbs(with h2o injection), if I ran stock compression and no h2o injection 6 lbs max...I could pull some timing but that hurts HP as well, although like lowering the compression i'd make up for it and then some with more "BOOOOOSSSSSSSTTTTT"
what did i just tell you ..same shitt your trying to sell me .. why don't you call and ask somebody like mr turbo and see what he has to say about this subject ... you can have your 22lbs of boost and 400hp .. i'm fine with 325 hp on 9lbs and don't have 1/2 the shitt to maintain or add onto the bike .. when you get 10.000 miles 300 passes and at least 500 topend roll-ons on your daily street riding turbo bike let me know ... i'm sure you can get c16 at chevron when on a road trip @ 10.00 a gal. ...
and i seen your comment on 10lbs with pump gas ... but i'll clean your clock at 10lbs with my set-up on the street
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted March 22, 2009 07:54 PM
If we are going to share input and info lets leave the egos and attitudes in our pockets, and keep your mind open!
Lets hear about what you run, what problems you had, what you liked and what you disliked, without attacking each other.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted March 22, 2009 07:55 PM
Edited By: dubious on 23 Mar 2009 03:56
The turbo inquestion appears to have had a combination of issues.
Bad FMU, wastegate not shimmed properly- making 9psi, stock compression, no timing pulled, tuning on pump gas.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
Bad in Black
Expert Class
Posts: 348
|
posted March 22, 2009 08:53 PM
quote:
The turbo inquestion appears to have had a combination of issues.
Bad FMU, wastegate not shimmed properly- making 9psi, stock compression, no timing pulled, tuning on pump gas.
The guy I got my Cycle-Logic kit from ran it for a year just as it came trouble free....as have many others. I read evilsports story........his problems stemmed completely from a shop that (as usual) wanted his money and told him (as usual) what he wanted to hear to get into his wallet.........then from 700 miles away they started blaming everything and everybody but themselves for their lack of expertise and screw-ups. Here's his last post on the topic--
quote:
evilsports wrote: I don't want to give the wrong impression. The failure was 100% tuning/mechanic error. The bike was running lean and it was either not noticed, or noticed and not treated with the caution it deserved.
The shop he had install and tune the kit in canada is to blame for this whole problem...not the kit. I get sick of these shit-ass shops screwig stuff up then blaming everybody else  
Evilsports is going to be lucky if he gets jackshit back out of this whole deal  The shop at first agreed to replace his pistons and associated parts for free if he supplies the parts..................now they're ignoring him. We all know where this is going don't we I personally know of too many problems like this.........its really sad. One is Team Rocket Factory (beware ), who personally screwed a friend of mine out of a boatload of money with the same bs. Like I said.........sad
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted March 22, 2009 09:37 PM
Edited By: dubious on 23 Mar 2009 05:44
I am happy to hear that you have great luck!
I know of 3 bikes personally, and 7 total that had issues with the cyclelogic kits, cartridge seals leaking and a bunch more of other stuff...
ask Rotten about his experience, or Tbone, or......
I am not going to get into this with you.
Niether of us were there, and YOU don't know all parties involved.
I have spoken with the mechanic , and Kevin on the phone, and via emails...
Did you know it made 9psi and ran out of fuel at 40 % throttle... he didn't even have a chance to get it tuned as tha damn thing tapped out the stock injectors at less than 1/2 throttle...
This same mechanic has installed RC Turbo's many times , and never seen teh quality control issues with the cycle logic kit.
Exhaust leaks, leaking cartridges, faulty wastegates, improper oil system instructions, faulty FMu's.... oh and I am leaving one out for the know it alls.... they will find out with their own pistons...
If Lee and Jesse weren't playing smart and caught the cycle logic kit overboosting, due to improper wasgate boost sensing fitting, they could have burned one up too.
That was almost 2 yrs ago though now so....
...
so maybe I will shut up and let you flog on..........
This is the bullshit that causes people to shut up.
ZXBOB knows much more about turbo's than you or I together but never says peep, because it always turns in to another internet panty fight.
As Bob said to me today on the phone.... " I have my idea's and opinions but I keep them to myself cause they all seem to know better than I do"....
thanks out to ALL the know it alls .....for diminishing the knowledge base availbale to the rest of us....
Those with a closed mind, never grow, and stunt the rest of us with their ignorance too.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
Evilsports
Expert Class
Posts: 119
|
posted March 22, 2009 09:47 PM
Edited By: Evilsports on 23 Mar 2009 06:52
Bad In Black, I can appreciate that you are ticked off at shops that screw people over, but I would like to give these guys the chance to make things right before jumping the gun. Shit happens sometimes. Like I said, I talked to the owner and he sounded like he wasn't going to try to shirk his responsibility. He's not ignoring me, I said he was going to call me back and hadn't. I'm not going to drag anyone through the mud unless they deserve it. I have every reason to believe that he will follow through on what we discussed. If not, then I will post up the entire situation here and let people judge for themselves. And chalk it up to a lesson learned the hard way. If he does follow through then I have every intention of completing my build with them and moving forward. A setback like this can be one of two things. An opportunity for a company to cement a working relationship with someone and show there character, or a chance to fall on there face.
And for the record I stand by my statement that this failure was human error. Aside from other contributing factors, I can see no reason for melted pistons when you have every relevant piece of data sitting in front of you. Real time fuel pressure, boost pressure, oil pressure, a/f ratio, PCIII duty cycle, throttle position. Fuel pressure to low? Get out of it. Boost higher then expected? Get out of it. Oil pressure low? Get out of it. A/F lean?.... You get the picture. That's the whole point of a dyno tune. To have a safe place to work out the kinks.
**Edit** Also keep in mind that I am not a mechanic. I am not a turbo expert. I don't claim to know anything that hasn't been generously shared by people on boards like this one. This is my LAYMANS take on things. Take it for what it's worth. If I knew so much about dyno tuning my own bike I wouldn't have spent the money to have an expert do it.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC