kawboy81
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Busa Eater
Posts: 273
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posted January 03, 2009 12:29 AM
friend installed timing advance
just wondering if any of u experienced this............ friend installed timing advance rotor on his 09 and said it wouldnt crank over 2.5 advance never heard of this and wondered if any of u experienced any issues?
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kawasakijockey
Pro
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posted January 03, 2009 08:38 AM
Make sure he advanced the timing and didnt retard it first. If it spins easy it is retarded. If it is hard to rollover it is advanced.
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2007 ZX-14
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kawboy81
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posted January 03, 2009 08:42 AM
thanks i will be sure to ask him...
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Ninja14
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posted January 03, 2009 09:01 AM
 Edited By: Ninja14 on 3 Jan 2009 17:02
It would spin no matter how far it was set ahead or back. It would start harder IF it was actually firing set adv - but it can't be set so far that the bike won't run.
When in doubt go back to stock and see what hppens.
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2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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kawboy81
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posted January 03, 2009 01:52 PM
he had no problems when set to stock........ only when set at 4 degrees plus...... he said it would just turn over and not even hit. but said it would crank at 2 and a half
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Halvefast
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posted January 03, 2009 02:00 PM
I' ll bet he is retarding it, each mark represents 2 degrees.
I had a similar experience trying to pull timing for NOS on the dyno.
We tried to pull 6 degrees out and it wouldn't even start, spun over fine but wouldn't run
Would start and run at -2 best retarded, for some reason these bikes love advance.
Even on the juice @ the mile had to go to -1 it wouldn't pull to redline in top gear @ -2
Hope that helps
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Ninja14
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posted January 03, 2009 07:31 PM
Some people get confused because retarding means it fires later....further down - which seems like advancing when you use linear thinking.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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kawboy81
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posted January 03, 2009 10:08 PM
well i talked to him about ur replies and he said it had the plus sign stamped on it so he was sure. he advanced it.....said he was gonna look again to b sure..... he said it was a muzzy adjustable advance like he has on his 9r but who knows..... ill have to take a look. it dont seem right to me for it not to start when advancing......thats a new one on me
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Ninja14
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posted January 04, 2009 12:13 AM
quote:
......ill have to take a look. it dont seem right to me for it not to start when advancing......thats a new one on me
Adv is used as the motor increases RPM...if RPM is low it is counterproductive.
Maybe the sensor is not geting the signal.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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87gtNOS
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posted January 04, 2009 06:38 AM
Ok, here it is, if the 'rotor' turns CLOCKWISE when the engine is running, I am pretty this is how our ZX14's work (been a couple years since I slotted my pick-up).
Then.....using the adjustable rotor, moving the teeth CLOCKWISE = ADVANCE.
COUNTER-clockwise = RETARD.
For the slotted pickup method, moving the pickup to the left = ADVANCE. Moving the pickup too far could cause it to not 'pickup'! However, using the adjustable rotor method, the rotor and pickup spacing remains stock.
My 2c worth, hope it helps somehow! Good luck!
I do wonder if he's actually installed it 8 deg advanced somehow instead of 4? But I have never seen the ZX14 adjustable rotor, only my ZX9 one.
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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87gtNOS
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posted January 04, 2009 06:39 AM
Some one also mentioned that too much advance would prevent it from cranking over at all....I experienced this with my Mustang!!!! He probably had a similar car problem too!!!
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Ninja14
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posted January 04, 2009 10:04 AM
How can spark(if not firing) have ANY effect on cranking?
It slows cranking if it is firing....early...far BTDC.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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87gtNOS
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posted January 04, 2009 10:08 AM
Ninja14, I can't answer that!! I just know that is what happens!!! Possibly due to it trying to fire WAY too soon before TDC?
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Ninja14
Pro
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posted January 04, 2009 10:31 AM
quote:
Ninja14, I can't answer that!! I just know that is what happens!!! Possibly due to it trying to fire WAY too soon before TDC?
I wasn't really looking for an answer.......it has NO effect if it does not fire.
If it does fire then it is producing power AGAINST the rising pistons and at the low RPM it is a hard start. Adv is as RPM increases to make up for time delay in the burning process.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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dubious
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posted January 05, 2009 07:12 AM
if it fires too soon the piston tries to fire backwards, instaed of over top dead center.....
like detonating against the starter!
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Sticks_n_Stones
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posted January 05, 2009 08:21 AM
Believe you got it backwards 87gtNOS, to advance the timing you want it too fire sooner so you bring the point of firing "closer" by moving the plate or distributor counterclockwise to the clockwise rotating trigger. You are advancing it by making it fire sooner, retarding it by making it fire later.
Kawboy make sure he understands that each little dash line is TWO DEGREES! For some reason Muzzy puts a ton of them little lines on there and it would be easy to think each line is 1 degree, and it takes VERY little movement to get the desired 3-4 deg advance you are probably looking for- like maybe 1/8th inch. Good Luck!
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87gtNOS
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posted January 05, 2009 04:24 PM
Edited By: 87gtNOS on 6 Jan 2009 00:26
quote:
Believe you got it backwards 87gtNOS, to advance the timing you want it too fire sooner so you bring the point of firing "closer" by moving the plate or distributor counterclockwise to the clockwise rotating trigger. You are advancing it by making it fire sooner, retarding it by making it fire later.
Kawboy make sure he understands that each little dash line is TWO DEGREES! For some reason Muzzy puts a ton of them little lines on there and it would be easy to think each line is 1 degree, and it takes VERY little movement to get the desired 3-4 deg advance you are probably looking for- like maybe 1/8th inch. Good Luck!
Thanks sticks, but I do understand!!
If the adjustable rotor teeth are the part you move (I have never seen one) then I am correct to say..
if the 'rotor' turns CLOCKWISE when the engine is running, I am pretty this is how our ZX14's work (been a couple years since I slotted my pick-up).
Then.....using the adjustable rotor, moving the teeth CLOCKWISE = ADVANCE.
COUNTER-clockwise = RETARD.
Moving the teeth clockwise is bringing them closer 'sooner'.
And for stock, slotting the pickup and moving to the left get me advance too.
But none-the-less, I think that once either of us actually installed the damn thing, we'd both get it correct.
edit..let me add, that sticks, I could see what you're saying if the rotor mounted differently in a different application, hence needing some sort of base plate adjusted and moved the other direction....
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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dubious
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posted January 05, 2009 11:31 PM
OK<
are we all retarded yet?  :P
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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87gtNOS
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posted January 06, 2009 05:37 AM
LOL!!!
you riding yet??!!!!!!
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Sticks_n_Stones
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posted January 06, 2009 06:26 AM
Me riding yet? Heck no, the latest snow just melted off the road and its raining cats n dogs! Combine the rain with the huge amounts of sand on the roads and it isnt looking like I'll be riding for at least another month.
About the timing: I was referring to a car, since you mentioned "rotor". I forgot that the Muzzy plate moves which means you are correct.
Yes, in fact, we are all retarded Dubious. We live in areas where more than half the year the weather sucks balls.
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
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posted January 06, 2009 06:42 AM
stick, dubious, yes, I live in Toronto....shit weather for 9 months a year. Now with a broken ankle, I can't even go snowmobiling!
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
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posted January 06, 2009 10:45 AM
quote:
Some people get confused because retarding means it fires later....further down - which seems like advancing when you use linear thinking.
You're retarded!!!!!
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
Posts: 3196
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posted January 06, 2009 10:52 AM
quote:
quote:
Believe you got it backwards 87gtNOS, to advance the timing you want it too fire sooner so you bring the point of firing "closer" by moving the plate or distributor counterclockwise to the clockwise rotating trigger. You are advancing it by making it fire sooner, retarding it by making it fire later.
Kawboy make sure he understands that each little dash line is TWO DEGREES! For some reason Muzzy puts a ton of them little lines on there and it would be easy to think each line is 1 degree, and it takes VERY little movement to get the desired 3-4 deg advance you are probably looking for- like maybe 1/8th inch. Good Luck!
Thanks sticks, but I do understand!!
If the adjustable rotor teeth are the part you move (I have never seen one) then I am correct to say..
if the 'rotor' turns CLOCKWISE when the engine is running, I am pretty this is how our ZX14's work (been a couple years since I slotted my pick-up).
Then.....using the adjustable rotor, moving the teeth CLOCKWISE = ADVANCE.
COUNTER-clockwise = RETARD.
Moving the teeth clockwise is bringing them closer 'sooner'.
And for stock, slotting the pickup and moving to the left get me advance too.
But none-the-less, I think that once either of us actually installed the damn thing, we'd both get it correct.
edit..let me add, that sticks, I could see what you're saying if the rotor mounted differently in a different application, hence needing some sort of base plate adjusted and moved the other direction....
hmmmm.. I've never seen one of these rotors, but on my cps on my old car, you would do just the opposite. Here is what makes sense to me....
assuming the motor spins clockwise
ADVANCE: turn the rotor counter clock-wise. This will start the ignition sequence EARLIER on the cranks rotation, therefore ADVANCING the ignition.
RETARDING: turn the rotor clock-wise. This will bring the ignition sequence CLOSER to TDC therefore retarding the ignition and giving you a later spark. Be careful with retarding too much though, it can lead to very high egts.
Who is right???
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted January 06, 2009 10:54 AM
Here is the ZX14 rotor.
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted January 06, 2009 10:56 AM
I dont mean to be a smart ass, but I am correct. You guys are correct for a car.
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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