larryc
Novice Class
Posts: 43
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posted July 22, 2008 03:41 AM
 Edited By: larryc on 22 Jul 2008 04:43
Some good thoughts and comments in this post. Good job guys.
Sounds about on par with HP/$$ invested to me. Around $50 per HP is not unordinary. Personally, I think the results sound about right. For one thing is shows you Kawasaki did their homework.
Stacks provide 2 benefits. Pressure wave tuning and flow increase.
There's no formula for the potential flow increase[and quite possibly there is none] but the intake system lengths can be calculated. You can tune for more midrange [generally longer stack] or for more peah HP [generally shorter stack]
Also remember the OEM has sound emissions to contend with. Stack lengths can affect that pain in the ass also.
One more thing. What you see on the Dyno doesn't always equate to what you get at the drag strip.
  
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marc salvisberg
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted July 22, 2008 10:53 AM
Edited By: marc salvisberg on 22 Jul 2008 12:17
lol!
I wouldn't know how long it takes to install the FP Superflare stacks - my guys did it - and the rubber molds had to be "tweaked" several times to get them to seal without being too hard to install. Certainly 10 minutes if you are testing (as you don[t have to put "every" bolt back in) and maybe 30 - 60 minutes if you are a careful hobbiest level mechanic doing it the first time.
As far as our claimed HP numbers -
You have to keep in mind that we use an EC997 brake dyno to do testing. It's the same dyne system that 3rd in Superbike, non-"factory" Jordan Racing (and a bunch of other top RR guys) use.
It tests under full load at each rpm. As in, for 10,000 rpm, the dyno will actually hold the engine at 10,000 rpm up to 275 Tue HP (about 375 djhp), without tire slip or RPM change.
So - "under Load", the bike makes XX.XX horsepower. (and it did)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HXcVxX8q940
For an example test - Normally, we'd hold the throttle at each rpm for around 5-7 seconds to get proper internal temperatures.
Now, those HP number we got, were real, we did indeed do it - it happened (more than once)
It wasn't a fluke reading - we have all sorts of different length stacks that were less "optimal" and we don't sell those other lengths, except by special order (as might be used for a modified engine with really long cams).
The dynojet dynos and their clones mostly all test for HP with a heavy drive roller and and a 4th gear whack - That's how dynojet teaches people to run their dynos (right or wrong (it's wrong))
Under a 5-7 second low to redline, dj style "sweep" test, the internal piston and combustion chamber are 300f-400f lower than the real world - and all sorts of things affect the apparent horsepower - things that I can't predict.
I sent the 15 and 25 stacks to Ryan Schnitz, to crosscheck my tests on his dj - as Ryan is probably more experienced than 99% of the guys who have dj dynos.
I'm not surprised that he got "similar" but not exactly the same hp improvement - as the internal engine conditions (due to the decreased engine run time) do indeed affect the amount of power an engine produces (if you followed any of that, that's part of why the ECU has different maps for each gear).
Luckily for me, they work well (when properly tested) on a dj dyno, too -
If I don't send them to Ryan to test, I'd get stuff like:
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=31432
That's the most transparent "flame" that I've seen in a while - all coupled up with one of his gsxr1000 customers who gutted his cat, removed his secondaries, replaced his air filter, had an "AFR" of 14.5:1 and THEN threw the stacks on and according to Cycle Metal and Paint, (unaccountably?) lost 16 hp.
It was all pretty horrid and in the end, his customer tuned his bike and then (I can't find the dyno charts his customer posted) but the stacks pretty much did do what we said they would do.
CMP IS a great painter, though.
Ryan's a great tuner and with over 35 years of tuning under my belt, I trust him to do decent testing.
That's why I sent them to him to crosscheck.
Thanks!
Marc
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Marc Salvisberg
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marc salvisberg
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted July 22, 2008 11:07 AM
quote:
I agree with u but I also believe that stacks would only show real world power WITH ram air. That you reallly won't see much of a gain in a stuffy trailered dyno. R&D would develop a product/part according to what they are trying to achieve. If there are limitations ie. Emissions, governs, restrictions etc they have to follow then what they end up may not be what's BEST only what the laws etc require. Trust me I know this if nothing else.
You are correct - the "real" hp produced would be the hp produced with the ramair, but since nobody has a dyno that produces 180 mph wind across the entire front of the bike, we have to empirically crosscheck dyno hp results with reported 1/4 mile speeds and work from there.
Luckily, the improvement results seem to, at minimum, back up the deliberately unpressurized loaded dyno tests or I'd be investing in a wind tunnel..........
10 years of life on the AMA race circuit is kind of unforgiving - doing trackside dyno work and then having the riders go immediately to the track and reporting back how well the dyno worked. Luckily, the EC997 dyno worked and the last year we went, we were doing almost every 250gp bike that got dynoed,. even Rich Oliver's #1 tz250.
Cheers!
Marc
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Marc Salvisberg
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted July 22, 2008 09:58 PM
It was my bike that Ryan Schnitz did the stack testing on and thanks to him for volunteering to do these tests free of charge. I was having some other dyno work with Ryan done on my Yamaha and asked Ryan if he had personally done any dyno testing on the ZX-14 velosity stacks I had just recieved a e-mail notification on from Schnitz. for. He said no and volunteered to test both sizes against the stock stacks on my ZX-14 the same day we were scheduled to tune the Yamaha.
The time Ryan quoted for instillation was with the plastic off and the tank up and he is a proffesional at it. About 45 minutes start to finish for the average guy reading a set of instructions.
The stacks are well made and come in 15 mm (race) and 25 mm (street) lenghts. They seal to the airbox better than the stock stacks. The straight part of these stacks that seals in the air box are rubber with aluminum bell mouths. The match to the throttle bodys and the aluminum bell mouths is perfect with no power robbing ridges. I purchased the street lenght stacks after testing because that is where I do most of my riding. If I was primarily a drag racer I would install the shorter 15 mm stacks because most of the benefit is in the 9,000 to 11,000 RPM range with the shorter stack lenght. After the first 100 feet you are in this range all the time anyway.
I agree with larryc that the pricing is on par for the $/hp for these stacks with proper tuning. After a good pipe, a power commander with proper mapping & the flys removed every additional HP increase gets more expensive and small things add up. Your'e results will vary with the setup and your'e tuning ability.
As far as the Ryan Schnitz's integrity as a businessman and his ability as a dyno tuner I fully agree with Marc Salvisberg. I asked Brock Davidson for a reccomendation for a dyno tuner when he couldn't do my work in 2006 and he reccomended Ryan Schnitz., and I have used him since then. Ryan also volunteered to do some ZX-14 air filter testing on four different available filter combinations (the K&N was not available at the time) for me last year to determine which available filter produced the best power because he was curious to know himself. Not many tuners and suppliers are willing to do this kind of testing to independently verify what they sell works. The only other one I personally have experience with that does this kind of verification and is willing to share the results is Brock Davidson.
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2006 ZX-14 (sold)
2012 ZX-14R (Brock's Perf. project bike Louisville Slugger)
2013 Honda VFR1200F
2003 124 C.I. H.D. Super glide
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ninjaboy311
Zone Head
Posts: 940
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posted July 23, 2008 04:10 AM
Got my race stacks in yesterday. Gonna install them tonight and if I remember I will take some photos of the installation. Won't be able to test them until next weekend though.
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Naarden Speedlinks Sponsored Rider
Schnitz Racing Sponsored Rider
8.74 @ 152 on stock motor and MR9 (Muzzy Powered), 205 lbs suited
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cajunboyz
Zone Head
Posts: 702
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posted July 23, 2008 04:59 AM
Let us know the True results there Patrick
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"Cajun Boyz with Bad Ass Toys"
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted July 23, 2008 05:35 PM
I haven't had a chance to do any real world testing with these stacks either. All my free time has been tied up with caring for my daughter who had cancer surgery the day after I returned to Louisville from Ryan's shop. It will probably be several weeks before we get back to the race track or I get a chance to ride on the street again.
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2006 ZX-14 (sold)
2012 ZX-14R (Brock's Perf. project bike Louisville Slugger)
2013 Honda VFR1200F
2003 124 C.I. H.D. Super glide
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marc salvisberg
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted July 23, 2008 05:44 PM
quote:
I haven't had a chance to do any real world testing with these stacks either. All my free time has been tied up with caring for my daughter who had cancer surgery the day after I returned to Louisville from Ryan's shop. It will probably be several weeks before we get back to the race track or I get a chance to ride on the street again.
Hi -
Our prayers are with her -
Marc
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Marc Salvisberg
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ninjaboy311
Zone Head
Posts: 940
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posted July 24, 2008 07:48 AM
Got my race stacks installed last night. I took my time to make sure everything was right, so it would be unfair for me to say how long it takes to install them. I took pics too, but I can't find the usb cord to download them to the computer. When I find it, I'll post them here. Installation was pretty easy. Worst part is removing the plastics to get to the air box. I propped up my tank instead of removing it.
Basically, I loosened one clamp at a time and left the clamp on the throttle body. I pulled the old stack out and left the frame seal intact. I cleaned up around the hole and any debris that fell into the throttle body. Sprayed the new stacks with WD-40 so it would fit easier and slid it through the frame and onto the throttle body. Once mated together, I put the clamp in place and tightened it. Repeated this for all 4. Wasn't bad at all. Like I said, I did take my time to make sure I did it correctly.
One thing I did find was that the plug that I installed into the frame where the reed valve (smog) tube vented to, was gone!!!! I don't know how long it was missing, but I'm sure that hole being open was taking away from the ram air performance.
Won't be able to test until next weekend.
____________
Naarden Speedlinks Sponsored Rider
Schnitz Racing Sponsored Rider
8.74 @ 152 on stock motor and MR9 (Muzzy Powered), 205 lbs suited
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