Blaze
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted November 20, 2007 05:00 PM
Question for the experts. What is going on with the rich A/F ratios of the 08 14s?
Guys, what do you think is going on regarding the very rich A/F ratio of the 08 14s?
I assume that numerous dyno tests, etc. have been performed by Kawasaki to make sure they have the very best map (to achieve optimal performance) for the 14 in stock form. Isn't there goal to beat the Busa in stock form? And with bolt ons etc.?
Recent testing of the 08 Busa demonstrates a very good stock map. Recent testing of the 08 14 (even Muzzy) demonstrates very rich maps that are robbing the 14 of HP and therefore performance.
It does not make sense to me (although, I am an amateur) that Kawasaki expects us to buy a brand new 14 and then have to buy a PC and re-map it to achieve optimal performance. Therefore, there must be a very, very good reason for the rich A/F ratios.
What do you guys think?
Is it because of the ram air effect? If, so wouldn't our re-maps be really lean at top speeds, etc.
Is it because they figure we will buy a pipe and re-map it anyway? I think this is crazy as they would want a stock 14 to beat a stock Busa.
Is it an error from the factory? Has anyone contacted Kawasaki regarding this?
Anyway, I hope you see my point. Again, what do you guys think is going on?
Thanks!!!
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fish_antlers
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posted November 20, 2007 05:03 PM
I'll bite...
I'll guess one word - "emissions"!
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dubious
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posted November 20, 2007 05:53 PM
aaah, Contrary though Watson...
richer = poor emissions...
you want less raw hydrocarbons, and less carbon monoxide, which is acheived by leaner fuel ratio's, and excess o2.
I am betting the a/f ratio is alot better with slip ons...!
Who has ran the bikes on the dyno with slip ons, or full pipe no map?
I am sure thast would help lan out the stock rich a/f ratio's.
Was the a/f ratio better? Did it make more power?
How much more HP was gained with a custom map after running the slip ons alone?
Maybe they did with the intent that most people will put a different exhaust on it?
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Blaze
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted November 20, 2007 06:24 PM
quote:
aaah, Contrary though Watson...
richer = poor emissions...
you want less raw hydrocarbons, and less carbon monoxide, which is acheived by leaner fuel ratio's, and excess o2.
I am betting the a/f ratio is alot better with slip ons...!
Who has ran the bikes on the dyno with slip ons, or full pipe no map?
I am sure thast would help lan out the stock rich a/f ratio's.
Was the a/f ratio better? Did it make more power?
How much more HP was gained with a custom map after running the slip ons alone?
Maybe they did with the intent that most people will put a different exhaust on it?
Point taken, but again, Isn't their goal to beat the Busa in stock form and with bolt ons etc.?
It just does not make sense that Kawasaki expects us to buy a brand new 14 and then have to buy a PC and re-map it to achieve optimal performance. Even if they did it for the fact that most will buy a pipe (slip on or full exhaust), there are to many exhaust choices and one would still need a PC and re-map most likely.
Therefore, there must be a very, very good reason for the rich A/F ratios.
Blaze
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reckless
Novice Class
Posts: 60
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posted November 20, 2007 06:38 PM
I agree that the whole too rich thing is strange. The ram air effect isn't going to make that much of a difference. I have never heard of a stock engine having problems with being too lean on top. As far as I know most of the emissions testing is done at real world throttle openings, that doesn't include the motor sitting at 9000rpm throughout the test. I don't know that much about the Euro 3 regulations but if anything the bike should be lean to the point of stumbling at 3000 to 4000rpm to pass stricter tests.
Kawasaki or any manufacturer for that matter is not going to build a product that doesn't work well stock. Saying that once you make a bunch of changes the stock fuel settings will work better doesn't make sense. Why build a lame duck? It would be like buying a new pick-up truck and having the sales guy say "well you can't tow anything over 500lbs without an aftermarket tow package that we don't sell and you will need to replace the shocks before you can put anything heavy in the back"!!! Much easier to build a product that works right the first time. Losing all the magazine tests because your bike doesn't work stock is not the way to set sales records.
I do know that richer motors tend to run cooler but a much simpler way to get a cooler running 14 is to fit another fan!!!!!!!
Perhaps in getting the 08 14's to dealers by the beginning of November they just made a mistake and the wrong test settings were downloaded to the ECU units? There could be a recall in the spring to install the correct settings?
Maybe running 3 cats in the exhaust through the readings off, maybe that third cat needs a certain amount of unburned fuel to work effectively?
Who knows?
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Blaze
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted November 20, 2007 06:55 PM
 Edited By: Blaze on 20 Nov 2007 18:56
quote:
Perhaps in getting the 08 14's to dealers by the beginning of November they just made a mistake and the wrong test settings were downloaded to the ECU units? There could be a recall in the spring to install the correct settings?
This may very well be the case.
Suzuki had to meet the same emission requirements as Kawasaki. They did it without these map issues. Therefore, something is going on.
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stevewfl
Moderator
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posted November 20, 2007 07:23 PM
its a conspiracy!
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reypac24
Novice Class
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Posts: 66
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posted November 20, 2007 08:04 PM
Hmmm. maybe making motor run cooler?
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bigbore4
Zone Head
Posts: 806
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posted November 20, 2007 08:32 PM
I'm quite sure the "Engineers" at Kawasaki are brilliant enough to deal with a "cooling" problem in ways other than richening the mixture.
The junk some of you guys come up with, forces me to break into my supply of Anti-Sidesplittin Pills.
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lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted November 20, 2007 08:34 PM
Edited By: lucky14 on 20 Nov 2007 20:36
1. Looking at the "14 vs Busa dyno" thread - that's just WRONG! The air/fuel ratio PLUMMETS to 10.0:1. If that were true, the power would plummet also, but it shows the "normal" (for stock pipes) curve dropping slowly to redline.
2. The dyno of my 08 14 shows an A/F of 12.6 at 8000 rpm slowly dropping to 11.9 near redline. Yeah, 11.9 is rich, but nothing like 10.0!
3. With the air filter pulled, the A/F is at 13.1 at 8000, slowly dropping to (surpise!) 11.9 near redline. BTW, it gained about 3 HP all the way through the curve (including 3.2 at peak) but the HP was the same from 10K to redline.
4. My readings were taken with a sniffer after the exhaust gases passed through 2 cats. I would bet that the readings in the other thread were done with a sniffer. I would hope that either Brock or Muzzy would weld in a bung ahead of the cats to get a more accurate reading.
5. I don't believe that the Kawasaki engineers made this big of a mistake on ALL of the 08's. Time will tell.............................
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b03818
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted November 20, 2007 09:34 PM
So what was your hp rating at?
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famous1
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted November 21, 2007 01:20 AM
Why can't it be for the ram air?
Kawasaki says 203hp at the crank with ram air....
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RobMuzzy
Expert Class
Posts: 295
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posted November 21, 2007 07:56 AM
There are no cats in our systems, however the same rich condition is there with stock ECU.
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted November 21, 2007 09:34 AM
very smart kaw is. To deal with emmisions they will do things to the motor that can be easily changed to get the most performance. Please the government and please us at the same time. In a few yrs they will be a 250hp motorcycles that are very detuned for emmisions.
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marc salvisberg
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted November 21, 2007 11:24 AM
quote:
Guys, what do you think is going on regarding the very rich A/F ratio of the 08 14s?
I assume that numerous dyno tests, etc. have been performed by Kawasaki to make sure they have the very best map (to achieve optimal performance) for the 14 in stock form. Isn't there goal to beat the Busa in stock form? And with bolt ons etc.?
Recent testing of the 08 Busa demonstrates a very good stock map. Recent testing of the 08 14 (even Muzzy) demonstrates very rich maps that are robbing the 14 of HP and therefore performance.
It does not make sense to me (although, I am an amateur) that Kawasaki expects us to buy a brand new 14 and then have to buy a PC and re-map it to achieve optimal performance. Therefore, there must be a very, very good reason for the rich A/F ratios.
What do you guys think?
Is it because of the ram air effect? If, so wouldn't our re-maps be really lean at top speeds, etc.
Is it because they figure we will buy a pipe and re-map it anyway? I think this is crazy as they would want a stock 14 to beat a stock Busa.
Is it an error from the factory? Has anyone contacted Kawasaki regarding this?
Anyway, I hope you see my point. Again, what do you guys think is going on?
Thanks!!!
EPA logs no full throttle operation - only part throttle operation, in other words, "normal" street use.
It would be a lot more informative (and less 02 sensor sketchy) if the "AFR" results were "Steady State" dyno tests and 4 gas EGA information was provided instead of a dealership level O2 sensor based "AFR".
It's tough to be fooled when you use 4 different sources of information for a gas analyzer.
Doing a "4th gear wack" test, on high hp bikes, can trigger the "acc. map" fuel function and richen things up. See that before, on some ZX-10 Kaws that people have sent me - Funny - I've said that since 2004....... ;-)
I'd donate a free steady state dyno test with 4 gas EGA if someone's got an 08 in northern California (just north of San Francisco).
As far as Kaw making a "mistake"?
Sure..... maybe...
It's possible - - they got the ignition timing and fuel all messed up in the old carbureted 95-97 6r's, and the same with the 9r's in 94 -97. They fiixed it on the later year versions, too.
Dynojet couldn't figure it out and blamed the pipe manufacturers - (chuckle.... I remember that all very well - but I did figure it out.... ;-) and that's what carb stuff Muzzy and Team Kinkos Kawasaki used on their 6r's and their 7r's..
BUT!!! Not that I'm picking on Kaw......
Yamaha messed up on the initial 07 R1's (they replaced the ECU's under warranty and all is nice, now). Suzuki's made mistakes, too - over the years.
Marc Salvisberg
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted November 21, 2007 02:53 PM
Why would one assume that the "rich"map from the factory requires a PC?Nobody has complained that the bike ran shitty or exhibited lean stumbles,i'm sure there are many factors as to why the bike is mapped this way,all above have contributed valid reasons why.
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stevewfl
Moderator
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posted November 21, 2007 08:49 PM
quote:
I'm quite sure the "Engineers" at Kawasaki are brilliant enough to deal with a "cooling" problem in ways other than richening the mixture.
The junk some of you guys come up with, forces me to break into my supply of Anti-Sidesplittin Pills.
So you think the thread folks are being somewhat far-fetched? Are these the same engineers that designed the ZX14 seat cowl with 4 screws? Time to clean the design up a little while they work on improvements to the mapping.
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ZX14 gone!
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BIGZXDADDY
Expert Class
Posts: 270
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posted November 22, 2007 03:08 AM
quote:
I'm quite sure the "Engineers" at Kawasaki are brilliant enough to deal with a "cooling" problem in ways other than richening the mixture.
The junk some of you guys come up with, forces me to break into my supply of Anti-Sidesplittin Pills.
\
adding more fuel is a very effective way to reduce cylinder temps on engines without egr systems and might explain the third catalyst
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
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posted November 23, 2007 07:56 AM
interesting thread, no one mentioned the different injectors used on the 08 as being part of the issue. i wouldn't doubt kaw set it up for a pipe, everyone is going to ditch the stock exhaust, aren't they?
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marc salvisberg
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted November 23, 2007 02:33 PM
As far as using fuel to make an engine run "cooler" at full throttle (as that's all that we are discussing), it makes a lot more sense to retard the ignition timing -
Retarding the ignition timing 3-4 degrees will significantly lower full throttle engine temps (5-10 degrees) and only hurt power 2% to 3% (a rough estimate on a stock engined bike).
Richening up the mixture (from Best Power settings), will cool the engine, yes... but, "generally" - you'll lose more power by over richening than simply retarding the timing a bit. So, it would be kinda odd if Kaw had an overheating problem at full throttle and richened up the fueling to address it.
Historically, they have once gotten confused in the mid 90's and over retarded the 6r's, 7r's and 9r's at high rpm - They had the ignition overly retarded from Best Power and they were looking at supposed O2 sensor based "AFR" and, I surmise that they saw what they thought was "lean", so, they did an excellent job of making the "AFR" read right, but in reality, they changed the fuel delivery curve of the carbs to over richen the mixture to get rid of the extra O2 (because the ignition was too retarded) and ended up fat, retarded and happy the "AFR" was right.
In reality, the engines were about 5-6 degrees retarded. Once the ignition timing was corrected (you can see ignition timing oddness with a 4 gas EGA), and the fuel delivery curve re-corrected, the 600's and 900's made 3% to 4% more power - That was the Factory Pro "street carb" kit an advancer that virtually every AMA team used.
Keihin was helping do the carburetion on those bikes, I think, and Keihin guys were using "AFR" to tune - "AFR" tuning can lead to all sorts of "over-rich" tuning - Years ago, who hasn't bought a set of FCR's or CRS's that wasn't 1-2 pilots too rich and a few mains too rich, too?
The reason why FCR's read "AFR" wrong is a whole other thread's worth.....
The one very interesting thing is that, if you are tuning "to an AFR" and assume that
AFR dogma is "right" - is that as you subtract ignition timing (from Best Power reference value) - the engine will leave more O2 (oxygen) in the exhaust and, using "AFR" dogma, you'll richen up the mixture - Exactly the wrong direction for fueling with less ignition advance .-
But.... the supposed "AFR" will look right.... (even though it's wrong - but who ever said it was actually "right" in the first place besides thousands of people who never cross checked it..... ;-)
Still, proper tuning comes down to providing the amount of fuel and ignition timing that produces the Best Power.
You look at the 4 gases to see other hints and clues as to what you might do to improve power.
Marc
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wedrivezs
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sundance kid
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posted November 23, 2007 09:55 PM
doesn't a fat AFR lower EGT's?
I'm with BIGZXDADDY on this one. Isn't there overheating problems at 95-110 degree riding temps?
But then again I'm no expert - still cutting my teeth with SCT and a ford lightning...I've a lot to learn in the tuning world.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted November 23, 2007 10:45 PM
No overheating issues on this bike...and I was running a lean map on my 06
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bigdtd
Needs a job
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posted November 24, 2007 08:22 AM
"No overheating issues on this bike...and I was running a lean map on my 06 "
Many of us FLA natives will attest to that. No overheating problems here. I think the 08 is just tuned different, not in response to any temperature issues.
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marc salvisberg
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted November 24, 2007 09:42 AM
Edited By: marc salvisberg on 24 Nov 2007 09:52
quote:
doesn't a fat AFR lower EGT's?
Err, yes, but an overly rich mixture wastes more fuel, burns dirtier and has poorer mileage.
Retarding the timing a bit doesn't waste as much fuel, burns cleaner and has better mileage........ as compared to richening the mixture an effective amount.
In theory (anyway), retarding the ignition timing a bit (4 degrees is a significant bit) will decrease the CHT a teeny bit and increase the EGT a teeny bit (as in single digit amounts). And even that's not always 100% true....
I wasn't aware that there was a ZX14 problem with overly hot header pipes, as far as the EGT subject (but good thinking! :-)
I think that people are making too much of the simple report the 08 ZX-14 "is too rich".
If the bike was really 10:1, it would be misfiring when you rode it.
That's why we don't use simple O2 sensors for serious tuning work........ we use a combination of steady state testing and 4 gas EGA to get the base mapping right, isolated from the ECU's acc. map.
The earlier ZX-14's - Well, of the ones that we've tested, a couple were pretty much right at where the mixture should be to make Best Power and a couple were the equivalent of 1-2 main jets worth of fuel too rich.
The fuel variation is not a big deal - it's not uncommon to find rich variations in individual bikes in every brand.
That's why when you download the "perfect" PC3 map - it might have worked on one bike perfectly and it may or may not be kinda perfect for your bike.
Marc
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BIGZXDADDY
Expert Class
Posts: 270
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posted November 25, 2007 08:07 AM
quote:
"No overheating issues on this bike...and I was running a lean map on my 06 "
Many of us FLA natives will attest to that. No overheating problems here. I think the 08 is just tuned different, not in response to any temperature issues.
the concern being discused was lower combustion/cylinder temps not over all engine temp. high combustion temps create nox gas, a big emmisions no-no which can't be cleaned up with a catalyst or other device. car companies have had to deal with this for quite some time now and have often used an egr system to reduce reduce cyl. temps because it's cheap and easy but it is certainly not the only way. some companies use vairable cam timing to create valve overlap(where intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time) during certain points of operation to cool cylinders. others simply fatten up the mix and clean up the mess downstream. new bikes have to conform to emmision standards same as cars and compromises will be made. there is alot more to building an engine nowadays then making it go fast without blowing up, a concept i'm sure alot of old school will have difficulty coming around to
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