lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted December 02, 2006 11:53 AM
Here ya go Vincent:
1. Vincent said: "My Friend said that he wanted to go with Muzzy and I stepped back and let him have at it!"
What an idiot your friend is for choosing a Muzzy exhaust!
2. You quoted your friend: "I am Selling ALL of this Muzzy -Stuff"
You made a point to let us know that the Muzzy junk is for sale cheap!
3. Vincent said: "He took the Bike out and had serious problems getting the Bike in Neutral and to shift correctly. After Several Calls to Muzzy...............
Damn POS Muzzy shifter!
I'm calling BS on your innocent act. You specifically name Muzzy over and over and never name the shop that did the multiple screwups?
How about I redo your first post for you:
I tried to get my friend to go with Brock's system but he decided to go with another brand. He took it to a shop called (name shop here) in (city, state) and here's what happened - blah, blah, blah. It was great of Brock to bail him out!
See how that concentrates the bashing where it should be?
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You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
  
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted December 02, 2006 12:02 PM
quote:
Rob, It is not an easy answer to give but I will try. First, I have nothing but respect for you and have NEVER Had ANY DIrect issues with you and think you are a great person Personally.
First, I do not know if I would call it a "Fault" but the High Pressure NOS Shifter as far as I can tell was installed correctly but because of some "Feed Back" through the electrical system on "Some" 14's it seems that the bike will not shift correctly. They called you guys and you went to work on it and came up with a Fix for it and it now works correctly. Nothing done WRONG, Just Something that was not completely worked out (Yes I know it is a New Bike and a New Product and you guys went to work IMMEDIATELY to get it corrected but it still caused several days of delay to get it to work).
Second, Again not something I would call a "Fault" but when he bought the Exhaust system, he had every intention of removing the Outter Throttle Plates which I knew. As Far as I know, Brock spent a lot of time to work out the mapping with these plates in and out and the Muzzy system only has maps for the Plates "IN". (Again, I know it is a New Bike and New Product and you have not worked out every possible combination and mapped for it but if the Muzzy pipe had the mapping for the Butterflies out on the 14, a LOT of Heart Ache would not have happened)
SO it is more like "Omission" than Commission. That is why I would not call ANY of this the Fault of Rob Muzzy, but more like him being ahead of the profile for the Muzzy parts and within the profile of the Brock parts. That is why I carefully stated at the end of my post [quote
Last, people take your time when making decisions on what you are going to buy and how you are going to use it and where you are going to take it.
Now to Mr Tony, You are correct in the fact that I do not like the ZX14. Smoking ZX14 you hit the nail on the Head exactly! Osti, You also hit the Nail squarely on the head! Brooklyn ZX12, like I am asking Lucky 14 to "Show me the MONEY"!! Please use quotes from my statement above to show me where I "Dragged" his name through the MUD? Are you saying that I Lied about the Shifter problem that Muzzy came up with a fix for? Are you saying that the mapping supplied by Muzzy was correct for the Throttle plates removed? None of you would have said anything In "this" direction if Rob Muzzy had not posted! I have said and will say that no where have I spoken against Muzzy! Is everyone so short sighted that you are now not allowed to speak good about anyone and not have it taken as BAD against someone else?? SO now if I like my ZX12R and do not like the ZX14 I have to HATE the ZX14 and the people that ride it? I HAVE Spoken about what my "friend" (Who ownes a ZX14) just went through and about the help he got from someone he has never met and does not know "Brock Davidson"
Lucky 14 please show "ME" Anywhere where I said that this was Rob Muzzy's or Muzzy fault or blamed him directly for this other than the NOS Shifter problem? Now since the NOS / Shifter had a problem and it was installed correclty, and Muzzy had to come up with a "FIX" for this, how can this part of these problems "NOT" be placed at Muzzy door step? Unfortunately this was just another bump in the road for this ordeal which by itself would not have been a BIG DEAL but you cannot ride a bike that you cannot take out of neutral manually or override manually to shift! Please use quotes from above and get right back to me! Yes, the High Oil level caused the oil in the airbox from the long and stressful time on the dyno. SO please tell me how saying that if he had used the Brock System that was fully mapped and would not have been on the Dyno all day long is saying that MUZZY made something that was either defective or his fault? What I did and I am saying is that if he had taken my advice which he called and asked me for Over and Over again spending HOURS on the Phone, that none of this would have happened! He knew that Kevin Cadby had installed the Muzzy Nos / Shifter and was an excellent Dyno operator and speaks Kawasaki. SO yes it was the Owner's fault for taking it where he took it and having too much oil in the engine, the Dyno Operators fault for what they did on the Dyno and the shops fault for not getting more advice before they tore into the engine. Again I say that NONE of this would have happened if he had taken my advice because none of this would have been becessary! I cannot say it more plain than that! SO take your time and get back to me as I have done for you. I do not know you but as you can see I use my real name and have owned, Ridden, Raced and Loved Kawasaki's since the late 60's. I have even raced against Rob Muzzy's guy Eddie Lawson and finished 3rd behind him in my heat race. Muzzy has allowed me to go through their trash bin to get some of their throw away parts that allowed me to race at Daytona! SO when I say that I have nothing but respect for Rob Muzzy, this is not blowing smoke. See for yourself
yes, that is me in the lower right of the top picture at the start of the Road Atlanta race so I am not being lapped  I take everything very seriously so if you question me and mis-quote me be prepared to bring your lunch!
SOme People think that if you do not like something you are then Against it. I have ridden a ZX14 and the looks, Feel and "Refinement" are just not a turn on To Me. If Kawasaki was going to make Fugly, then they should have done it first! They had this bike on the Drawing board (as seen in the silver book that the original ZX12R owners received) but did not produce the bike until AFTER they saw how well the very Fugly Busa did in sales. SO in the case be first or be last and they were not first!
Mechanically I have always done ALL of my own work to my good and detriment. To those of you that do not do your own work and take your bikes to the "Shop" for all of your service work, mechanically there is no problem with a ZX14 that I know of.
BUT to people that do all of their own work, then maybe you can understand it when I say that I would not enjoy pulling the entire engine out of the bike and splitting the cases just to put in a Set of rings?? I would not enjoy buying a set of cases with the Cylinder if I gouged a cylinder wall or just plain wore out the cylinder from High Mileage and had to replace the entire set of cases?? Also if you are a perfection Freek like I am, you also want the engine case numbers and Frame case numbers to be the same ones the bike came with. SO for me, the "Ease of Maintance" is a HUGE issue with me.
I hope I have answered all of the question to everyone satisfaction and "ALL" I wanted to do here is let every ZX14 owner know that "A", Taking your ZX14 to a place that knows Nothing about ZX14 can be a Total Nightmare. Even if you are at a place that knows Kawasaki's, problems can happen! "B" do not be in a Rush to correct problems by Mechanical Surgery, get a Second Opinion!
+1... khi did miss the mark...and who even designed the zx14 engine should be shot... its never gonna be a busa or zx12... because of difficulty of engine design.... sure the zx14 is faster but is it that much faster to have hit the mark ....
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted December 02, 2006 12:09 PM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 2 Dec 2006 12:29
quote:
Sounds like the dyno operator/shops fault to me.
Yep. I agree. A test ride would have revieled the issues and they could have been addressed before the customer had an issue. Its not easy to find shops that really go all the way and complete a job down to the small details. I think alot of it may be what the average customer is willing to pay time wise for that sort of work and quoting work like that can be hard.
Bolting on parts is one thing and making everything work together and function 100% is another. Its the second part that makes people decide to bring it to a "pro".
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 02, 2006 01:01 PM
quote:
quote:
Rob, It is not an easy answer to give but I will try. First, I have nothing but respect for you and have NEVER Had ANY DIrect issues with you and think you are a great person Personally.
First, I do not know if I would call it a "Fault" but the High Pressure NOS Shifter as far as I can tell was installed correctly but because of some "Feed Back" through the electrical system on "Some" 14's it seems that the bike will not shift correctly. They called you guys and you went to work on it and came up with a Fix for it and it now works correctly. Nothing done WRONG, Just Something that was not completely worked out (Yes I know it is a New Bike and a New Product and you guys went to work IMMEDIATELY to get it corrected but it still caused several days of delay to get it to work).
Second, Again not something I would call a "Fault" but when he bought the Exhaust system, he had every intention of removing the Outter Throttle Plates which I knew. As Far as I know, Brock spent a lot of time to work out the mapping with these plates in and out and the Muzzy system only has maps for the Plates "IN". (Again, I know it is a New Bike and New Product and you have not worked out every possible combination and mapped for it but if the Muzzy pipe had the mapping for the Butterflies out on the 14, a LOT of Heart Ache would not have happened)
SO it is more like "Omission" than Commission. That is why I would not call ANY of this the Fault of Rob Muzzy, but more like him being ahead of the profile for the Muzzy parts and within the profile of the Brock parts. That is why I carefully stated at the end of my post [quote
Last, people take your time when making decisions on what you are going to buy and how you are going to use it and where you are going to take it.
Now to Mr Tony, You are correct in the fact that I do not like the ZX14. Smoking ZX14 you hit the nail on the Head exactly! Osti, You also hit the Nail squarely on the head! Brooklyn ZX12, like I am asking Lucky 14 to "Show me the MONEY"!! Please use quotes from my statement above to show me where I "Dragged" his name through the MUD? Are you saying that I Lied about the Shifter problem that Muzzy came up with a fix for? Are you saying that the mapping supplied by Muzzy was correct for the Throttle plates removed? None of you would have said anything In "this" direction if Rob Muzzy had not posted! I have said and will say that no where have I spoken against Muzzy! Is everyone so short sighted that you are now not allowed to speak good about anyone and not have it taken as BAD against someone else?? SO now if I like my ZX12R and do not like the ZX14 I have to HATE the ZX14 and the people that ride it? I HAVE Spoken about what my "friend" (Who ownes a ZX14) just went through and about the help he got from someone he has never met and does not know "Brock Davidson"
Lucky 14 please show "ME" Anywhere where I said that this was Rob Muzzy's or Muzzy fault or blamed him directly for this other than the NOS Shifter problem? Now since the NOS / Shifter had a problem and it was installed correclty, and Muzzy had to come up with a "FIX" for this, how can this part of these problems "NOT" be placed at Muzzy door step? Unfortunately this was just another bump in the road for this ordeal which by itself would not have been a BIG DEAL but you cannot ride a bike that you cannot take out of neutral manually or override manually to shift! Please use quotes from above and get right back to me! Yes, the High Oil level caused the oil in the airbox from the long and stressful time on the dyno. SO please tell me how saying that if he had used the Brock System that was fully mapped and would not have been on the Dyno all day long is saying that MUZZY made something that was either defective or his fault? What I did and I am saying is that if he had taken my advice which he called and asked me for Over and Over again spending HOURS on the Phone, that none of this would have happened! He knew that Kevin Cadby had installed the Muzzy Nos / Shifter and was an excellent Dyno operator and speaks Kawasaki. SO yes it was the Owner's fault for taking it where he took it and having too much oil in the engine, the Dyno Operators fault for what they did on the Dyno and the shops fault for not getting more advice before they tore into the engine. Again I say that NONE of this would have happened if he had taken my advice because none of this would have been becessary! I cannot say it more plain than that! SO take your time and get back to me as I have done for you. I do not know you but as you can see I use my real name and have owned, Ridden, Raced and Loved Kawasaki's since the late 60's. I have even raced against Rob Muzzy's guy Eddie Lawson and finished 3rd behind him in my heat race. Muzzy has allowed me to go through their trash bin to get some of their throw away parts that allowed me to race at Daytona! SO when I say that I have nothing but respect for Rob Muzzy, this is not blowing smoke. See for yourself
yes, that is me in the lower right of the top picture at the start of the Road Atlanta race so I am not being lapped I take everything very seriously so if you question me and mis-quote me be prepared to bring your lunch!
SOme People think that if you do not like something you are then Against it. I have ridden a ZX14 and the looks, Feel and "Refinement" are just not a turn on To Me. If Kawasaki was going to make Fugly, then they should have done it first! They had this bike on the Drawing board (as seen in the silver book that the original ZX12R owners received) but did not produce the bike until AFTER they saw how well the very Fugly Busa did in sales. SO in the case be first or be last and they were not first!
Mechanically I have always done ALL of my own work to my good and detriment. To those of you that do not do your own work and take your bikes to the "Shop" for all of your service work, mechanically there is no problem with a ZX14 that I know of.
BUT to people that do all of their own work, then maybe you can understand it when I say that I would not enjoy pulling the entire engine out of the bike and splitting the cases just to put in a Set of rings?? I would not enjoy buying a set of cases with the Cylinder if I gouged a cylinder wall or just plain wore out the cylinder from High Mileage and had to replace the entire set of cases?? Also if you are a perfection Freek like I am, you also want the engine case numbers and Frame case numbers to be the same ones the bike came with. SO for me, the "Ease of Maintance" is a HUGE issue with me.
I hope I have answered all of the question to everyone satisfaction and "ALL" I wanted to do here is let every ZX14 owner know that "A", Taking your ZX14 to a place that knows Nothing about ZX14 can be a Total Nightmare. Even if you are at a place that knows Kawasaki's, problems can happen! "B" do not be in a Rush to correct problems by Mechanical Surgery, get a Second Opinion!
+1... khi did miss the mark...and who even designed the zx14 engine should be shot... its never gonna be a busa or zx12... because of difficulty of engine design.... sure the zx14 is faster but is it that much faster to have hit the mark ....
Might as well get over that 2 piece case, all new bikes are going to be that way ... It makes for a stronger motor , No studs, no base gasket will make for less twisting of the block and better head gasket sealing .. Less case and crank flex..... It cost no more money to over bore than a Busa or a zx12 , true it is a bit more labor but i do all my own work anyway, so no extra cost for me ... You guys act like it's a big deal to spilt the cases.....!!! As many zx12 owner have split the cases for a stroker or a trans repair it should be no big deal....You dont hear the Gixxers guys making a big deal out of it do you....In the short time the zx14 has been out it has set records and they are just getting started.....Within 2 or 3 years the zx14 will over take the busa and the busa will be history just like the old kz 900 and gs 1100 motors ..Racers will still use them but the hot ticket will be the zx14 motor for most street and strip guys ...Some people need to get thier head out of the sand..... 
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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kawpower
Zone Head
Mr kawasaki 2 you!
Posts: 887
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posted December 02, 2006 01:14 PM
Amen brother!!
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BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
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posted December 02, 2006 02:23 PM
Vincent just to let you know you have made a friend in me... I have said time and time again that the customer service Brock gives makes all the difference in the world... I do belive Muzzy makes a VERY good product but in the several times I have called them I have always been treated like they were doing me a favor by talking to me and in my opinion that is enough to buy another brand. I ALSO BELIEVE IT IS OUR DUTY!!!! AS CONSUMERS TO PUNISH THE COMPANIES THAT DONT TREAT US LIKE GOLD... and for this reason ONLY i will never buy another muzzy product. again let me say ,so i dont get flamed, ROB MUZZY makes a very good product but I have been treated like crap every time I have called them so I am through and because of this when someone asks me what type of pipe they should buy I WILL SAY BROCK and then explain why
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 02, 2006 03:39 PM
quote:
Vincent after reading 1000s of your posts about your zx12 and the money you have spent in repairs and mods you could have bought 3 spare zx14 motors off ebay and still had money left over to buy a zx14 ....Your worried about not having a matching number bike ??? lol it's not like anyone would buy the bike from you anyway and if they did i'm sure they would careless if it was matcting number bike ...It's not like it's a low mile matching number Hemi Cuda...It's just a 3500.00 dollar worn out zx12 .....Sorry if that sounds hard , i'm sure your zx12 means everything to you just as my 70 Roadrunner is to me....But other people don't feel about your bike as you do.....It's not like your bike is a cure for cancer, it's just a motorcycle..
Smokin! for a "Street Bike" I have never made 1 repair to the 12. I did have to replace the stater but that was after I had started racing it. Even racing it until The very last Maxton this year I have bnever hurt a part (I went for Broke and was successful when I turned up the NOS Pressure and timers and forgot to turn up the Fuel Pressure> This was ALL My fault) Except for changing to CP Nos Pistons and Falicon Billet Clutch Basket and "Muzzy" Clutch (I also Have his steering Dampener but we are talking internal Engine) Everything is what I got the day I bought the BIKE I also have a Mint 2000 ZRX1100 which I enjoy more than I did the 12 when new. So all of the problems I have had were to achieve 300 to 350 HP which is no easy feat. If I had big money to buy several engines I would not use the original engine ever. I keep all of the Original Parts original just in case I want to restore the bike to original! For ME is no one! Understand matching was just one of many and last on the list OK?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 02, 2006 03:42 PM
quote:
I had a nice experience with the shop I took my bike to. We yanked the butterflies and retuned it,stretched it lowered it. The guy runs a 6 second bike and has for a long time. My bike was purchased with a muzzy pipe and power commander used and untuned.nIt had 1300 miles on it when I got it. Smitherscustoms of Olathe KS did mine. Mine was the first to yank the butterflies and he retuned it from the bottom up and the bike has rane exactly as expected. I knew from the websites about the 3500rpm backfire and yes mine still does it occaisonally. It's always about being choosey and not being cheap with anything this fast. Let those in the know do what they do best. If someone is trained to work a dyno from dyno jet results should follow
You have and had someone that had a CLue My friend did not! Since he was going to remove the Butterflies this was the #1 reason against using the Muzzy. If they had the Mapping like Brock did then again None of this would have happened. Trust me on this, there are a lot of good mechanics that just know too little to work on a 14!
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lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted December 02, 2006 03:56 PM
Brock is a cool guy. He is also a buisnessman. There is not much room for more busa r&d. So why not jump on the new king for some tunning. Lets see what happens when the new Busa hit the street. Muzzy didnt flyinch from kawasaki r&d when the busa hit in 1999. He threw a few parts out there but why not? Most is kaw stuff and still is. a person that wants his bike tune to profection should use a tuner who is trained well and knows how to adjust to what the use of the bike will be. Dynojet even has software for their program that will automaticly downlaod a map for the entire spectrum of the program. Brock im sure has a good map. and would work well for most bikes. But it is imposible for a map done in Ohio to be the best map for a bike riden in miami fl. there is several hundred dollars diffrence in the pipe also. Alot for a couple hp. I am about ready for a turbo on my zx10, i will call brock and see what he has. when the 2008 zx14 is available i will buy one and also be looking for a turbo kit. Who you think will have one, Velocity?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 02, 2006 04:10 PM
quote:
Here ya go Vincent:
1. Vincent said: "My Friend said that he wanted to go with Muzzy and I stepped back and let him have at it!"
What an idiot your friend is for choosing a Muzzy exhaust!
"You called him an Idiot! During our conversations I told him that tuning was and would be the problem with the Muzzy pipe and that the Brock was already tuned and mapped for EXACTLY what he was planning to do"! He does not know how to tune his own bike! ALL of his previous bikes have carburators and he just did not understand the differences and made the wrong choice FOR WHAT HE PLANNED TO DO!
2. You quoted your friend: "I am Selling ALL of this Muzzy -Stuff"
You made a point to let us know that the Muzzy junk is for sale cheap!
"He is and was extremely upset (Just like you or anyone would have been) He was not in a charitable mood at the time. I quoted what he said.
3. Vincent said: "He took the Bike out and had serious problems getting the Bike in Neutral and to shift correctly. After Several Calls to Muzzy...............
Damn POS Muzzy shifter!
" From reading what you are posting, you are the kind of person that would have been even LESS Charitable. The Muzzy NOS / Shifter did not work! It took several Days and several calls before a Fix was found. Am I supposed to Lie and ignore part of his problems or tell everything he went through? Also more of these will be sold and if they have a Problem, by working with Muzzy it can be fixed. This is not something that should be kept a Secret
I'm calling BS on your innocent act. You specifically name Muzzy over and over and never name the shop that did the multiple screwups?
"There is a very good reason for this. It is not over yet and when it is you can bet the farm they will be named!!! I have NEVER EVER BEEN Innocent, but you also do not see anywhere anyone can call me a Liar either!!
How about I redo your first post for you:
I tried to get my friend to go with Brock's system but he decided to go with another brand. He took it to a shop called (name shop here) in (city, state) and here's what happened - blah, blah, blah. It was great of Brock to bail him out!
"Oh the innocents of this! As SOON as you post anything the first question is, What Kind of exhaust did he have? If you do not answer, then people start to guess and other people can draw the wrong conclusion"! The point is, The Muzzy system is not tuned for butterflies out and the Brock is tuned both ways. It is an important consideration when spending your money. Specially when the systems are in direct competition with each other. Leaving the Butterflies in you pick your exhaust! Taking them out?? If you do not live near a good tuner and Dyno operator (WOULD YOU BELIEVE THAT MANY PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THIS OPTION?) Then this is an important consideration!!
See how that concentrates the bashing where it should be?
In the next few weeks and the final outcome is known, then the info on the shop. #1, it was not a Kawasaki dealer which I already stated and no matter where you live this is important... #2, even more important, the person that had knowledge and did all he could do one the problems started admitted to making a Major mistake by letting a much less experienced person do the Dyno runs. SO even when you have a great doctor sometimes they will let others do the operations and really mess you up so you are always better off starting out with a dialed in Map
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted December 02, 2006 04:23 PM
Now it's starting to be a good post...
You get what you pay for!!!
Sure, it cost alot of $$$ for good race motors, good tuners, good pipes, good swingarms, good nitrous set ups...Well, I'm sure you guys get my point now!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 02, 2006 04:39 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 2 Dec 2006 16:51
Smokin, We both understand the reasons for the 1 piece case cylinder design. Many more engines may also be made that way but for absloute POWER (as in top fuel) they are still using the old KZ1000 engine as a Base with 2 valves per cylinder and case studs and making over 1,000 HP
Personally I also agree that it is not a big deal to split the cases. But to have to take the engine out of the frame and split the cases just for a set of rings is a lot of work. I have not see the process of installing pistons and rings in the cylinder / cases! All I can do is IMAGINE the fun of trying to Hold a heavy crank in 1 hand while trying to fit the rings in all 4 cylinders with the other hand. It just sounds like something I hope I will never experience.
I have no problem with people jumping all over me for their preceived put down of their hero and dream Bikes. If I have saved even 1 person from making a mistake in what they plan to do or may even be in the middle of right now, then It is worth it. This is a place to share information and learn what not to do and in this thread there is plenty of things to learn here. One may just be to afraid to tell about any problems that happened with some products for fear of being beat on!
When I bought my Muzzy clutch kit it came with all of the Oil and chips right out of the Drill Press. I posted this and stated that Muzzy should have kept his Parts cleaning person. Muzzy saw the Post and opened several kits ready for shipping and found the same thing. He pulled all of them and made sure they were all clean and no one (as far as I know) has ever gotten a Clutch Kit that has not been cleaned!
Maybe Muzzy will step up again and do the mapping for Butterflies out and save a lot of his customers the extra money of Dyno time and wear and tear on their engines for a total mapping. Maybe the mapping in Dayton Ohio is not perfect for a person in Denver, but at least the curve is there to add or subtract fuel for the chart range to have a perfect running bike. The difference between the flies in and out is a HUGE Mapping change and it will cost $300 to $500 depending on the Dyno Operator and the Tuning software they are using. SO this is truly something to consider.
Last, Yes I will be accused of Muzzy bashing again by telling about the Clutch Basket. The difference is, Muzzy did something then and he may do something now and all of the people that have his exhaust will benefit like all of the people that bought his clutch kits did. Keep silent and no one gaines anything!
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lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted December 02, 2006 08:29 PM
I paid almost 1600.00 dollars for a stage 1 head that was done by what a lot of us know as one of the baddas engine and head man in the game. when i got it back it was fillings in the ports and they never cleaned the carbon out of the chamber. after i finally cooled off i cleaned it put it on and was happy with the performance. i did call them. I also did the muzzy clutch mod back in 2001. i have had great success with clutch in my 12. i have setup many others because they saw of my sucess with the muzzy clutch. i also orded a billet basket in 2005 and it was perfect. I agree with the base map it does make it easier, but most tuners charge a set price for a custom map regardless of ease.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 02, 2006 08:42 PM
quote:
I paid almost 1600.00 dollars for a stage 1 head that was done by what a lot of us know as one of the baddas engine and head man in the game. when i got it back it was fillings in the ports and they never cleaned the carbon out of the chamber. after i finally cooled off i cleaned it put it on and was happy with the performance. i did call them. I also did the muzzy clutch mod back in 2001. i have had great success with clutch in my 12. i have setup many others because they saw of my sucess with the muzzy clutch. i also orded a billet basket in 2005 and it was perfect. I agree with the base map it does make it easier, but most tuners charge a set price for a custom map regardless of ease.
Great Post! Even if the charge is the same, the time on the Dyno and stress on your engine is a big deal. Most dyno Operators can not charge you for a Day on the Dyno when they are done in an Hour or SO
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 02, 2006 08:55 PM
quote:
Smokin, We both understand the reasons for the 1 piece case cylinder design. Many more engines may also be made that way but for absloute POWER (as in top fuel) they are still using the old KZ1000 engine as a Base with 2 valves per cylinder and case studs and making over 1,000 HP
Personally I also agree that it is not a big deal to split the cases. But to have to take the engine out of the frame and split the cases just for a set of rings is a lot of work. I have not see the process of installing pistons and rings in the cylinder / cases! All I can do is IMAGINE the fun of trying to Hold a heavy crank in 1 hand while trying to fit the rings in all 4 cylinders with the other hand. It just sounds like something I hope I will never experience.
I have no problem with people jumping all over me for their preceived put down of their hero and dream Bikes. If I have saved even 1 person from making a mistake in what they plan to do or may even be in the middle of right now, then It is worth it. This is a place to share information and learn what not to do and in this thread there is plenty of things to learn here. One may just be to afraid to tell about any problems that happened with some products for fear of being beat on!
When I bought my Muzzy clutch kit it came with all of the Oil and chips right out of the Drill Press. I posted this and stated that Muzzy should have kept his Parts cleaning person. Muzzy saw the Post and opened several kits ready for shipping and found the same thing. He pulled all of them and made sure they were all clean and no one (as far as I know) has ever gotten a Clutch Kit that has not been cleaned!
Maybe Muzzy will step up again and do the mapping for Butterflies out and save a lot of his customers the extra money of Dyno time and wear and tear on their engines for a total mapping. Maybe the mapping in Dayton Ohio is not perfect for a person in Denver, but at least the curve is there to add or subtract fuel for the chart range to have a perfect running bike. The difference between the flies in and out is a HUGE Mapping change and it will cost $300 to $500 depending on the Dyno Operator and the Tuning software they are using. SO this is truly something to consider.
Last, Yes I will be accused of Muzzy bashing again by telling about the Clutch Basket. The difference is, Muzzy did something then and he may do something now and all of the people that have his exhaust will benefit like all of the people that bought his clutch kits did. Keep silent and no one gaines anything!
You know why they still use the old KZ motors?? it's not because it's a 3 part block.....It's the head ...Two valves work better than 4 in a blown motor.. Same go for top fuel rail or funny cars... The old KZ heads look and work just like a top fuel hemi head...Kenny,force and all the other top fuel teams have tried 4 valve heads and they just don't work... 4 valve heads work great with low lift cams like the ones in our bikes But don't respond well to super high lifts...I would agree it much easier for them to do a tear down between rounds with that type of KZ motor....You would have to admit there is not much in a top fuel motor that came from the factory, it mostly after market parts to be able to hold that kind of HP...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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The Blue Mule
Expert Class
Posts: 122
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posted December 03, 2006 06:39 AM
quote:
quote:
I had a nice experience with the shop I took my bike to. We yanked the butterflies and retuned it,stretched it lowered it. The guy runs a 6 second bike and has for a long time. My bike was purchased with a muzzy pipe and power commander used and untuned.nIt had 1300 miles on it when I got it. Smitherscustoms of Olathe KS did mine. Mine was the first to yank the butterflies and he retuned it from the bottom up and the bike has rane exactly as expected. I knew from the websites about the 3500rpm backfire and yes mine still does it occaisonally. It's always about being choosey and not being cheap with anything this fast. Let those in the know do what they do best. If someone is trained to work a dyno from dyno jet results should follow
You have and had someone that had a CLue My friend did not! Since he was going to remove the Butterflies this was the #1 reason against using the Muzzy. If they had the Mapping like Brock did then again None of this would have happened. Trust me on this, there are a lot of good mechanics that just know too little to work on a 14!
I'm sure your friend thought he had it under control , but you can't save everyone. When your friend chose someone without the proper experience, that was his choice. This has nothing to do with chooseing a Muzzy pipe. This is about people and their reckless behavior. The motors in these bikes are relativley expensive. It's unwise to trust it to just anyone. You have to take a long hard look at the person your going to let map your bike. It's kinda like an interview process with a baby sitter. If you don't ask the right questions well then it's obviously buyer beware. Consider it a lesson learned by your friend and yourself.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeShEeglQ6E
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted December 03, 2006 06:56 AM
Vince I don't think I have to "show you the money"Lucky already highlighted the areas in your post that I believe dragged Muzzy into something that was really the dyno operators fault just as Osti and Y2K mention.Hell even Rob was offended himself.This dyno operator could have messed up the installation using Brock components.I found it to be a little unfair to Muzzy.I'm not saying Muzzy's stuff is the best or the worst but I do know that he sponsors the site and he is a supporter here.I think the post could have been worded a little differently.
P.S.Vince I got news for ya the 14 runs with throttle blades in too!Ask Rickey G!!Ask Kawpower!
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted December 03, 2006 08:17 AM
Cant forget about Smokin going 9.18 stock wheelbase with all the throttle blades in place...No TRE either ...How's that for cheap speed!!!
Comeon Vince stop living in the past...Who cares about the old KZ and GS motors, they are going to be a thing of the past real soon...Stop resisting change and accept it...Stop being so 'OL SCHOOL !!! 
Even the NHRA is seeing the light in ProStock Bikes!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted December 03, 2006 09:12 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 3 Dec 2006 09:14
Realize that I know this person and knew his impatience (Yesterday is not soon enough and today is waay too late but I must have 100% perfection from the beginning!). I knew who I was dealing with but the punishment did not fit the Crime. All of this is The #1 reason for the Brock Pipe over the Muzzy, it was just that plain and Simple. For the Butterflies "OUT" the mapping he would have received would have been spot on and none of this would have been necessary.
There are other people on this board that have this same kind of impatience and are the people that need to understand the cost of this problem. If you are going to remove the Butterflies and do not have access to a good Dyno operator / Tuner then the choice is clear. Understand that and everything else is Simple. There are also still some issues with the NOS / Shifter assembly that may or may not now have been cured. Filling the Oil level up to the top and spending long hours on the Dyno can produce problems like he had. What is done after this is more important than before!
Last, not only does Muzzy "Sponsor" this site but Brock does also just in-case you missed that and even Kawasaki does. Are you now saying that we have to become like the Bike Magazines and be PC about what we say here to avoid offending the MONEY? If and when that becomes a reality, you can believe you will no longer see any post from me here about anything! I will ban myself. I go back to far with life in the United States where "I" Was restricted on what "I" Could do or say without getting into trouble and possibly losing my life for it. SO I will not let a web site do what I did not allow to happen to me in this Country. Remember, I know all of the players here for years and Years. I have Known Muzzy since the late 70 (More than the 25 years he remembers and I have Known Lang Hindle for about the same amount of time and Brock for about 6 years and have nothing but respect for all of them because they all are at the top of their game. Even when Pierre (Bear Racing) did not come up to the line I stopped dealing with him until the issues were resolved. I truly play no favorites even with the Beloved Kawasaki That I raced from back in the 70 to the Mid 80's and even now that I ride and would own no other Brand! Everything is fair Game when something can be better!
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Robmuzzy
Expert Class
Posts: 295
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posted December 03, 2006 10:05 AM
For the record- We have never offered a map for the ZX-14 with the throttle plates removed because in our initial testing the bike was very hard to launch even with them in. You must remember our testers where Ryan, Rickey, Doug Meyer,and one of our technicians. All these people are small to medium size. I have since talked to many people that have removed there plates. The people that are happy with them out under all riding conditions, are large to very large. It is my belief that a 250lb. plus rider with plates removed See's about the same rate of acceleration as Ryan does with the plates in. I now believe that there is a reason to remove the plates and we will make a map available for the MUZZY systems with the throttle plates removed.
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navigator
Expert Class
Posts: 308
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posted December 03, 2006 11:00 AM
Mr. Muzzy, hard to launch and rate of acceleration as your reasoning for not doing a flys out map seems a bit of a cop out to me. In my opinion, since you are changing your stance on this particular idea, it is due to the increased requests for this particular item and the fact that is has been done on enough engines to prove that it is not detrimental, in the short term, to engine reliability.
In your place, with your reputation, I might have done the same. There is definitely a risk associated with putting your name on a service or product that has not been tested to your satisfaction.
However, stating launch power and rate of acceleration, to a bunch of drag racers and performance addicts, as reasoning for a performance products company to not provide a particular product or service is somewhat comical to me. That is exactly what most of us are looking for. If we overpower the existing setup we can modify some more to take advantage of the additional power. Isn't that what drag racing is about?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted December 03, 2006 01:21 PM
quote:
Amazing how civil this discussion can be without FBA chipping in...
Out of the 3600+ posts I've made here, I believe that many have been quite civil...or are you just trying you bait me? ...besides which...I have little to say as my 14s' all Brock anyway...all I can do is restate my opinion regarding Brock..."Service above all else".
I don't exactly agree with Rob's statement regarding acceleration when comparing a 140 lb rider to a 250lb rider with flies out. Under 5k, there's a world of difference between flies in and out regardless of the rider's weight...IMO. The fact that he's recently changed his position on fly removal is a good thing...IMO 
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FYYFF!!!
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted December 03, 2006 01:32 PM
Bashing ZX14 bikes on the ZX14 forums 
Talking about ancient old news bikes here  but I'd expect the same from the 'busa guys, they're mad about the 14 too 
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted December 03, 2006 01:36 PM
I have never spoken to Mr. Muzzy, but i have observed his products. There is a reason why he uses 1270 kits with je pistons and others use 1290 (zx12). There is a reason he use 1317 blocks for the 12s and others use 1320. there is a reason for the 4 mil cranks and not the 5s. there is a reason for the 230 hp zx10 turbo and not the 250 hp others offer. this could go on. i believe its cause he thinks on a mass production, industry style of products that has not taken the bikes to the limits. im sure he has coffee from time to time with khi in japan.I dont fault anyone who plays safe. Sure some of us wants to push it to the limit. this is a small percentage of piped and mapped bikes out there. look at the membership of forums like this. it increases at a snail pace compaired to bikes sold.the choice should be ours. we all know who built the fastest 12 in the states and im looking for a 600 plus hp 14 any day. i think we should have to prove fault before using names on the web. I spent 750.00 on a hindle step pipe listening to this forum. i took off my muzzy put on the hindle went to my magician and made about 6 hp over my last map with the muzzy. when i got to the track the 60 ft was down bigtime. The mph was within 1 and the et. was off at ..08 slower. i was determine to make it work after a couple trips and it didnt. i snatched it off and put muzzy back on and went faster than i ever have with no mapping. i have that barely used hindle hanging on the wall today. over a 1000.00 total dollar mistake. I never came complaining to this board. for that. im sure im not the only case out there. all these guys are excellent at what they do. Prove the products are faulty then let people know is the way it should be. there are laws of the land about slander and defamation of character. we need to be mindful.
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted December 03, 2006 01:59 PM
I hear ya Lonniemac.There are so many variables when you are drag racing that it is very hard to isolate problems and or tuning differences between products.Muzzy does not offer a map for the flies out, Brock does.Vince's friend bought a Muzzy and took the flies out without having a baseline map from Muzzy available coupled with a dyno operator who probably wasnt on top of his game.Initially it seemed the described "soft"low end power of the ZX14's could be cured by removing the secondary throttle blades,I believed it at first also.After reading about Smokin's 14 goin 9 teens and seeing 2 ZX14s at E-Town one with a Brock Gen3 and the other with ...get this A "Muzzy" both go in the 9 teens,maybe Rob Muzzy wasn't wrong after all.Hes going to make a map available for the flies out so thats good news.
P.S. The 2 ZX14'S that are E-Town regulars both went in the 8's with the secondary throttle blades in,no spray either!!!
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