tonytooth
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posted November 17, 2006 09:40 PM
"the tubes of the orient system are larger than that of a tiforce system"
Wrong again, they both use 60.5mm mid pipe to canister sizing. I just spoke with those guys at Orient.
BTW, editing makes for nice looking posts huh?
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countersteer
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posted November 17, 2006 09:42 PM
i have read that asinine statement so many times that i have it memorized. it haunts me sometimes... you spoke out like a TRUE NOOB and got shot down like a fucking asshole.
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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countersteer
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posted November 17, 2006 09:44 PM
i spoke with skip and personally inspected the orient pipe when i dropped off my zx12 on friday. according to skip, the orient pipes are larger in diameter. i am dead set on picking up one of those systems- they are BEAUTIFUL and works of art in itself. furthermore, i am not wrong again- for me to be wrong "again" would imply that i was incorrect once. i am never wrong; but always right.
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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tonytooth
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posted November 17, 2006 09:47 PM
 Edited By: tonytooth on 17 Nov 2006 22:06
Your not getting it. Skip was the one I spoke to (more than once). He is pushing the Orient system on you because he can't sell you a TiForce system. Don't you get it. Of course he's gonna tell you his is better. I promise you, it isn't. Orient is a TiForce knockoff.
In all fairness, they are close.
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countersteer
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posted November 17, 2006 09:49 PM
like i said, there is NOTHING that you know that i DONT about the orient pipes. no one is pushing anything on me. the only thing being pushed on friday was my zx-12 into the garage. skip told me, crystal clear, that orient has wider diameter tubing than tiforce. so anyway, back on track.
WHY IS BROCKS PIPE SUPERIOR TO MUZZYS?
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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tonytooth
Zone Head
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posted November 17, 2006 09:52 PM
Just as a test, why don't you tell him you changed your mind and you want the TiForce instead? See if he can actually get it for you. Trust me, he can't unless he buys it like a regular consumer or he has one in back stock.
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countersteer
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posted November 17, 2006 09:54 PM
quote:
WHY IS BROCKS PIPE SUPERIOR TO MUZZYS?
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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smokinZX14
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posted November 17, 2006 10:44 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 17 Nov 2006 22:46
quote:
quote:
WHY IS BROCKS PIPE SUPERIOR TO MUZZYS?
If you go back and read Muzzys post about his pipe you will find that he said he pipe was built for good driveability in mind ...He wanted good strong mid range as well as good top end power and it's hard to get both, so you have to make some consessions ....I'm sure he was looking for a flat torq curve... If you look at both pipes side by side you will see that both Muzzys and brocks pipe use a stepped style pipe and that adds to a good torq flat curve..Brocks pipe is NOT supperior to Muzzy pipe , the two pipes were built for different types of power output ...Brock Smeg with it's much larger tubes were built for more top end power.. While Muzzy pipe with the smaller tubes will make for more driveability for the avg street rider .. Collector size on Brocks is much larger and so is the mid pipe adding to the top end power .....
Having built many sets of customs headers for cars over the years the header size, collector size and head pipe size you can move the power band around to fit the output of the engine, cam specs and intake style.. If you had a Muzzy pipe side by side with a Brocks as i have you would see for yourself....I can't and didn't take anything away from Muzzys pipe , it is a great pipe and priced right and anyone that has one will be very happy....
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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countersteer
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posted November 17, 2006 10:53 PM
my main point was merge collectors vs stamped, and i couldnt have said it better myself- good deal man. that is the difference between a muzzys and brocks.
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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smokinZX14
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posted November 17, 2006 10:56 PM
quote:
i have read that asinine statement so many times that i have it memorized. it haunts me sometimes... you spoke out like a TRUE NOOB and got shot down like a fucking asshole.
And who you calling a noob you noob you signed on 19 days before me .... 
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
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posted November 17, 2006 10:57 PM
quote:
my main point was merge collectors vs stamped, and i couldnt have said it better myself- good deal man. that is the difference between a muzzys and brocks.
Thank you ....Smokin
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Bently
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posted November 18, 2006 06:30 AM
Well since I have no one that can dyno tune a bike around here, I proved to myself 3 yrs ago what pipe and map was Better. I had a muzzy's on my Busa and ran 9.80's. Switched to a brock Gen3 and ran low 9.60's first time out. Pipe and map being the only change I made. Maybe if the muzzy was tuned on a dyno it would have been closer, even tho I think the maps made on the track work far better IMO. My buddy had the muzzy on his Busa and he would out 60ft me by a .10 and by the 1000 ft I was around him and pulling away. And would out run him by a .10 and 4 to 5 mph. So that's proof enough for me. maybe it was not far because of the map work Brock does, but Muzzy could have offered me a map and didn't Countersteer what's your best 1/4 mile on your 12 or 14? I still feel if I went and had my bike dyno tuned I would slow down in the 1/4 over Brock's track map.
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Bently
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posted November 18, 2006 06:32 AM
Edited By: Bently on 18 Nov 2006 06:32
Oh and by the way the M10 exhaust is sweet looking IMO. And I'm the first one that calledMuzzy's months ago and asked if they were going to offer it for the 14.
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Robmuzzy
Expert Class
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posted November 18, 2006 07:48 AM
Bigger is not always better. Years ago we had to hide smaller pipes inside of bigger because of this thinking. In the past 10 years most consumers got away from this thinking and we did not have to hide what we were really doing. I suppose you guy's think bigger intake ports are better also.
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countersteer
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posted November 18, 2006 07:50 AM
rob, why is it that you use stamped collectors while brock uses merged?
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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Robmuzzy
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posted November 18, 2006 08:08 AM
We do not use stamped collectors. What pipe are you referring to?
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GUNNER
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posted November 18, 2006 09:19 AM
quote:
We do not use stamped collectors. What pipe are you referring to?
What about your average SS ZX14 pipe?? Is it Merged or stamped?
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 18, 2006 09:26 AM
Edited By: tonytooth on 18 Nov 2006 09:28
quote:
quote:
quote:
WHY IS BROCKS PIPE SUPERIOR TO MUZZYS?
If you go back and read Muzzys post about his pipe you will find that he said he pipe was built for good driveability in mind ...He wanted good strong mid range as well as good top end power and it's hard to get both, so you have to make some consessions ....I'm sure he was looking for a flat torq curve... If you look at both pipes side by side you will see that both Muzzys and brocks pipe use a stepped style pipe and that adds to a good torq flat curve..Brocks pipe is NOT supperior to Muzzy pipe , the two pipes were built for different types of power output ...Brock Smeg with it's much larger tubes were built for more top end power.. While Muzzy pipe with the smaller tubes will make for more driveability for the avg street rider .. Collector size on Brocks is much larger and so is the mid pipe adding to the top end power .....
Having built many sets of customs headers for cars over the years the header size, collector size and head pipe size you can move the power band around to fit the output of the engine, cam specs and intake style.. If you had a Muzzy pipe side by side with a Brocks as i have you would see for yourself....I can't and didn't take anything away from Muzzys pipe , it is a great pipe and priced right and anyone that has one will be very happy....
I couldn't agree more. It's all relative to what a person is looking for. Some of us are strickly drag racers and others never make one pass in there life. I really like titanium but other people prefer stainless. I've always said, most pipes out there are so close to one another, it's not worth arguing over. Cost, look, power, sound, material and weight are just some of the factors in deciding what pipe you want.
For instance, when Smokin was planning to buy his smeg from Brock, we wondered if it would be too loud. I had heard other megs on other bikes and some can be extremely anoying especially if you are riding for long periods of time. I wouldn't run a loud meg even if it gave me 5 more hp (10hp maybe). Turns out, the Brock smeg isn't too loud at all. It's sounds great and it looks really cool.
When I put my original TiForce system with the conical tip style canister on my bike, it sounded like crap. Thee worst sounding pipe you have ever heard. At that time, Smokin had his Muzzy pipe and his sounded, looked and ran much better than mine did and he paid half. Believe me, I wasn't happy until I changed out the canister for there original straight through core design w/spout. I didn't care for that conical style at all.
Unless you are an experienced drag racer and can make very consistant passes back to back then there is no need to crazy over which pipe is the best. I know my bike has a lot more in it, I just can't ride it. Most people can't ride there bike to it's potential so there pipe isn't a big factor. Smokin can ride to his bikes potential so it makes perfect sense for him to start grasping for extra ponies. Maybe, it's time to mount up on my bike Lee and see what it's got. Next time we go to the track, it's all yours (fresh clutch too).
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GUNNER
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posted November 18, 2006 09:34 AM
quote:
Bigger is not always better. Years ago we had to hide smaller pipes inside of bigger because of this thinking. In the past 10 years most consumers got away from this thinking and we did not have to hide what we were really doing. I suppose you guy's think bigger intake ports are better also.
Rob, Sir are you saying you sold the public pipes that were double wall OR are you saying your personal stuff was like this on the race bikes?? And if so which pipes did you sell like this?
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Robmuzzy
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posted November 18, 2006 09:47 AM
We sell the same thing we race, or we race the same thing we sell. Yes we sold product that was double wall.
We use either swedged or bent tube collectors. The swedged collector is less labor intensive and allows us to control angle and volume. On some pipes we use bent tube (merged) collectors usually 4/1 pipes.
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Robmuzzy
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posted November 18, 2006 09:54 AM
The MUZZY ZX-14 pipe uses swedged collectors. The swedged collector works better in welded applications. We do not like to use slip fit collectors on street systems, because they wear and leak eventually.
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GUNNER
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posted November 18, 2006 10:00 AM
These double wall pipes were offered to everyone or offered to select few? How did you control cost on such a pipe? Producing a pipe like that (I mean double wall tubing at least in the front part would be very costly) Did these pipes cost extra or did you guys eat the extra cost?
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GUNNER
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posted November 18, 2006 10:12 AM
Edited By: GUNNER on 18 Nov 2006 10:44
quote:
The MUZZY ZX-14 pipe uses swedged collectors. The swedged collector works better in welded applications. We do not like to use slip fit collectors on street systems, because they wear and leak eventually.
I held one of these ZX14 pipes in my hand several months ago and already knew that..
Velocity is lost in a stamped collector due to expantion of the gases inside the collector.. BUT I'm not telling you anything new Rob. I'm sure you have forgot more than most of us will ever know. There is nothing better than a Merged colletor when comparing 4 into 1 systems or 4 /2/ 1 either.. Collector volume or Excessive volume is a killer of a system just as much or more as the tube size and lenth. www.burnsstainless.com for all your header construction pointers.
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GUNNER
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posted November 18, 2006 10:35 AM
quote:
The MUZZY ZX-14 pipe uses swedged collectors. The swedged collector works better in welded applications. We do not like to use slip fit collectors on street systems, because they wear and leak eventually.
Rob, which would be better? A slip fit pipe that can expand and move a little or a welded up collector to primary tube configuration that will without doubt CRACK over time? OR is the real question>>>>>>>>>>Which is cheaper to produce and sell?
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smokinZX14
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posted November 18, 2006 10:47 AM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 18 Nov 2006 10:50
quote:
Bigger is not always better. Years ago we had to hide smaller pipes inside of bigger because of this thinking. In the past 10 years most consumers got away from this thinking and we did not have to hide what we were really doing. I suppose you guy's think bigger intake ports are better also.
I for one don't think bigger intake is better ..It can be on lets say a prostock motor that uses a big bore short stroke, runner sizes that flow 500+CFM is normal.......Prostock motors turning 11000 RPMs need that sized port to to feed the volume of fuel and air at that RPM.....But as you know it kills lower RPM port velocity..... Port velocity is key in making a good engine but it must match the bore, stroke, cam timing and the header must be sized to match this items...Take a 426 hemi running SS/A needs big tubes and a very short collector to turn 8800 RPMs ...Vs a 426 Max wedge that turns 6500 needs a smaller tube with long collectors to make power ...One head flows 420+ CFM(hemi) and the other flows 290 CFMs(wedge) .....You picked the tube size of your street pipe based on it being a good all around size for street riding ....You picked a larger size for you all out drag pipe ( Sidewinder) It's plainly clear why you did that and the pipe works as you wanted it to....If your street pipe was the answer to everyones needs you would have never built the M10 or the Sidewinder....Rob i'm not bashing you , i use your air shifter, lower links and other items on my zx14 and my ZRX ...I could not be happier with your products and will be buying more items from you for years to come ..I would tell anyone that wants a great all around exhaust system to get your pipe and if you look at my posts you will see that i allready have done just that....Smokin..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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