GUNNER
Needs a life
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posted November 18, 2006 11:13 AM
 Edited By: GUNNER on 18 Nov 2006 11:27
Basicly Muzzy's makes a cheaper constructed pipe and he makes some better stuff that is very single purposed such as his sidewinder pipe. Most people don't know the difference between a Merge collector and a stamped JUNK collector or why one is better than the other. So is it Rob's place to educate them? I say NOT. If they'll take some time and visit a site like Burns Stainless these points will be cleared up for them to a degree. Think of these collectors as a McDonald's hamburger or one cooked at home on your own grill.. They sell a lot of McDonalds but are they really the best burger out there??
I'm also NOT Bashing Rob.. I'm just discussing header pipes and comparing the collectors at this time. Header pipes are to a degree a Black Art that on motorcycles are dictated as much by space and confinement as anything else. If any of us think we have a pipe that is remotely close to what factory road race teams have we're just fooling ourself.. Drag Pipes may be the most commonly shared technology of all the header pipes because of the very small operating window..
  
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smokinZX14
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posted November 18, 2006 11:23 AM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 18 Nov 2006 11:32
quote:
Basicly Muzzy's makes a cheaper constructed pipe and he makes some better stuff that is very single purposed such as his sidewinder pipe. Most people don't know the difference betwen a Merge collector and a stamped JUNK collector or why one is better than the other. If they'll take some time and visit a site like Burns Stainless these points will be cleared up for them to a degree. Think of these collectors as a McDonald's hamburger or one cooked at home on your own grill.. They sell a lot of McDonalds but are they the best burger out there??
Well i would not call it cheap ...Maybe cheaper labor costs to build..And i would not call it Junk either , hell it's much better than the factory pipe...... and one more thing i like McDonald's hamburgers !!!!!!!  Sorry just having fun here  this thread is getting heavy and needs to lighten up a bit...Smokin...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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GUNNER
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posted November 18, 2006 11:29 AM
Smokin...........I was editing that cheap remark as you were quoting my post.. I didn't like how it sounded. No they're NOT cheap.
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GUNNER
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posted November 18, 2006 11:31 AM
AND the JUNK comment is comparing a Stamped collector to a merged collector.. NOT the entire pipe.
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GUNNER
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Posts: 5778
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posted November 18, 2006 11:35 AM
It's clear why a system that is made up with merged collectors cost more. The labor involved to just sit and pencil weld the inside of the collector and polish it back out perfect is probably 1/2 as much as the entire construction of the other pipe. Time cost money 
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1badzx12r
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posted November 18, 2006 07:00 PM
more smack....less knowledge....brock sux...muzzysux...who cares ....get down to racing
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k bryant
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Sponsor
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posted November 18, 2006 07:58 PM
Many of us made/make exhaust with double wall designs. Two examples - Chrome pipes to create an air gap and/or area to place mylar between to prevent blueing. We made these famous and mainstream during the early days at SuperTrapp. But they were heavy and fairly expensive to work with in those days. The other was as Rob explained, though we still use this on many H-D and/or Metric Cruiser applications where the consumer wants a huge looking exhaust like 2.25" or 2.5" tube. We run a much smaller tube (say 1.625" - 1.75" or 2.0") inside to gain performance. In addition, this also helps prevent discoloration on chrome pipes by creating the air gap, allowing us to manufacture an exhaust that does not require external heatshields to hide the "blueing".
countersteer - Actually a "lighter pipe" does affect performance on many engines, especially depending on their state-of-tune. Although the outer tube diameter (which most people correlate to "performance") may be of a certain size, the wall thickness can vary greatly. For example, exhaust tubing I.D. is normally, .065, .049, or .035. Some of us have access to even more exotic "disposible" wall thickness of .025. It takes very special skills/mandrels to bend and manipulate this tubing. Horsepower can be affected by wall thickness since of course the tube is smaller or larger on the I.D.
Also, material can affect power as well. I have tested endlessly with steel, stainless steel, titanium and Inconel over the last 30 years with more racers and factory teams than I have space to put down here... On some engines, it makes a difference. All things being equal, I would presume it to have more to do with heat retention/expansion than anything else. It does not necessarily work across the board on all applications.
Lastly, a "stamped" collector can be a "merge" collector as we know it. It simply involves stamp tooling that forms two halves that are then welded together at the seam replicating the merge design. The main reason we rarely commit to doing this is cost for tooling and freedom of design. Basically when we make merge collectors out of tubing, it allows us to change the degree of merge by changing the degree of bend and/or degree of cut for the merge which changes the length of the "runner". But yes, generally speaking, a true "merge" collector made up of tubing cost significantly more to produce than a stamped version. They are a true pain to produce in quantity and be able to keep costs down....
On a 4-2-1 design we have three merge collectors. The smaller primary merges (from the headpipes) are normally mirror images. The larger secondary merge that ties in the primary merge sections may be unique to a particular engine. They are not always the same. In some cases we may change the secondary merge for other reasons as well. Such as limitations on oil pan/sump design, fairing clearance, shock linkage location, frame hinderance, etc...
At the end of the day, it truly is a black art that requires endless testing. I've been doing this for 30 years and I still get surprised from time to time when we try something old or new on a particular application. The old "just when you think you've seen or tried everything" surprise..... Sometimes it's all about compromise on design. Whether cost is or isn't involved, you still compromise on almost every exhaust design. The "perfect" exhaust is still out there waiting to be discovered....
Rob is one of the best in the industry. I'm sure his M14 is a great product. As for the differences and what is better or not between his and another brand, there is no simple test or answer and only the person actually laying out the cash to purchase one can decide. If it is about who makes the most power, I think that can only be proven on a a dyno with said systems mapped to perform their best on the same bike and conditions. In actual Drag racing, I would imagine a given rider could make up for an exhaust making "less" power than another. A dyno while not perfect, is of course a more accurate tool to measure hp than a human. But then again, dyno's don't win drag races.... Peace.
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stevewfl
Moderator
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posted November 18, 2006 09:15 PM
quote:
BlackMagic14- the origanal post was regarding the Brock Gen3 making 9 more HP than the MUZZY Std. pipe. If you want the same deal regarding the Brock Meg and the MUZZY meg. I will take that too. I will come to you. If the Brock pipe makes 9 more HP than the MUZZY pipe you get my $1,000.00. If it does not you pay my expenses. I would recommend you test both pipes before you say anymore. I have!!
*YA OK, LETS PUT THE SPIN ON*
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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countersteer
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Didn't read the owners manual
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posted December 05, 2006 06:44 PM
BUMP
good thread
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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