Do you think a turbo is enough to break Noonan's 259 mph record? It looks very inviting and there's a man in LA that makes one for the 14. What type of horsepower does one need to break his record? And what horsepower did he have in his record setting bike?
posted September 20, 2006 02:08 PM
of course,,, that is all noonan had.... Just a turbo... Pretty much stock bodywork when he set the record. He went with an aftermarket tail section and found it did worse then the stock bodywork, and put the stock back on. I would guess in the area of 500 hp (dependent of bike aero) There are others who are close to those numbers who are using far less hp... He was running in area of 30lbs of boost... And some riding experience, just not for everyone to go out and do it...
Chassis setup is probably just as or more important that got him there...
posted September 20, 2006 03:32 PM
I have to assume that Noonan was making over 500 hp on 30 lbs. But what's really important is TRACTION and John has that figured out for sure.
My crystal ball says that if your ZX14 went 190 on 180 hp it would need 462 hp to go 260.
But, what happpens when you start pushing a lot of air is more wheelspin and you've got to have extra power to spin the wheel even faster. You need EXCESS power. That's where Joe's 550 number comes from.......
BTW I know Rob Muzzy has a very nice ZX14 turbo in the works..... I've seen it.
posted September 20, 2006 04:52 PM
Edited By: landracing on 20 Sep 2006 17:53
Great calculations Doug, We should compare notes, Giving my extra 10% margin for a ZX14 that went 190 mph on 180 HP, my "cracked" crystal ball says 546 hp at crank or 500 hp at rear wheel. Whichever..... You take the 10% correction factor away that I call real world then it would be 496 hp at crank and 446 hp at rear wheel... How close our numbers are....
Here's one for you doug then, how much HP for a bike that went 191 with 136 HP.... Have fun.. Hopefully talk to you soon...
posted September 20, 2006 06:05 PM
flyboy.........yes you could do it...............
Noonan doesnt have a 259 avg record.............a one way.........
his best two way average in the SCTA record books is 246.xxx mph...........
he does have a bit higher avg from BUB last year with FIM...........
calculations are great............but alot of what ya run into cant be conveniently
accounted for with a variable....... .............
one turbo 14: http://www.labusas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=83463
its alot more than hp issue............Forstalls big turbo busa that went to BUB
is a 600+ hp machine...........other issues held them to 236 .................
posted September 20, 2006 06:50 PM
Flyboy,
A lot of "conventional wisdom" on gasoline falls apart at high density altitudes.
For the REAL story on the best gasoline blends to use up there (or anywhere for that matter) call Rick Gold at ERC racing fuels ercracingfuels.com
he is a no BS guy that really knows gasoline. I think he was the suppplier at BUB, no?
landracing- that's like only half a question.......
Doug
posted September 20, 2006 08:09 PM
Edited By: flyboy on 20 Sep 2006 21:23
Doug,
I spoke at great length with Rick before going there to probe his mind and yes he was the supplier. The lowest octane he had was "106 mula". That's what I used on the production run.
Next question for you guys- Will the right blend of fuel always produce more power than the right blend of gasoline at altitude? Would I have gone faster in the MPS class if I had used the right blend of gas? Do you only use Fuel just to use Nitro?
posted September 21, 2006 11:03 AM
Edited By: joea on 21 Sep 2006 12:06
swf.......with all do respect..........
talking about numbers like 750...........is all talk.........right
now...........
ie a turbo that can flow 750 hp worth of cfm is one thing.........
someone needs to first do something big with the Muzzy zx12r turbo...........
flyboy.......yes you would have been better served to use the best oxygenated
gasoline with the optimal octane.........rather than some higher octane non-approved
fuel.........
unless you can take advantage of a true power adder like, methanol, nitrous, or nitromethane.........your better with the spec fuel......or mula or equivalent.........
posted September 21, 2006 12:50 PM
MR9 is 87 oct. leaded fuel. It will pick up 7-10 HP at the wheel....this is with straight MR9. This is a oxygenated fuel. Octane #'s dont mean crap anymore unless you build a motor that has super high compression. I had to lean my bike out to see the benefits of this fuel. If you are really serious about this you need to have the bike tuned for MR9. You will see benefits just pouring it in but you will see more if properly tuned. I don't know crap about top speed runs but i know what kind of hp it takes to run #'s at the strip. With all the "standard" mods..pipe,pc,mr9,flies out, no airfilter you should see around 180-190 SAE hp. Try a thinner headgasket, cam gears..maybe another 10hp. Try a big bore kit...maybe another 10-20 hp. Not sure how much that helps with top speed though. Really stupid question...if you guys are traction limited why can't you run a more agressive tire to bite in the sand?
____________
06 Blue 14
9.008 at 153mph @ 195 suited
posted September 21, 2006 03:52 PM
...........can't you run a more agressive tire to bite in the sand? ....
NO..........its not sand........though it gets similar at
times.........like this years speedweek event.............and occassionally
very firm.........such as this years BUB event.............
typically................narrower the better..............Vesco went 318 mph on a
3/4 inch contact patch..............
posted September 22, 2006 05:05 PM
Thank you guys for your imput.
When you're running gas at altitute with a 12 to 1 ratio don't you want the lowest octane you can get? Some of the octanes offered were up to 120. I concluded that the higher the octane... the lower the horsepower.
Was I correct?
____________
'There's more living in five minutes flat-out on a bike than some men have in an entire life'.
"The World's Fastest Indian"
One fast red ZX-14,
Three World and four National Land Speed Records,
One faster red and white Cessna Turbo 210
posted September 23, 2006 09:23 AM
flyboy......relatively speaking........for the octanes offered
by ERC..........the real high octanes wont do you any good...
.......normally aspirated..........
you and your tuner will hopefully prove in real world dyno testing
what the cats meow is for your bike as far as fuel is concerned........
posted September 23, 2006 10:31 AM
Edited By: RICH CRAFT 1 on 23 Sep 2006 11:38
Flyboy, motor fuels with high octain ratings have retardents so they wont pre egnite. This is great for high compression car engines that see 7000 to 8000 RPMs but engines that turn high RPMs like the ZX14 the flash point of these fuels are not quick enough thats why MR9 is 87octain. The flash point is much quicker. We used U4 last week and picked up 2mph in the 8th mile. The MR9 is suposed to be better so i would run it straight BU is right about remap although Brock's map says MR9 is okay. BU if you read this how much did you pick up in the 8th mph?
posted September 25, 2006 09:04 AM
I pick'd up a tenth over the whole pass and 3mph. I even changed gears and still picked up 3 mph.
____________
06 Blue 14
9.008 at 153mph @ 195 suited
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted September 25, 2006 09:36 AM
[quote[typically................narrower the better..............Vesco went 318 mph on a
3/4 inch contact patch..............
Whoa!
JoeA - I agree hat someone needs to step up with a turbo bike soon. Hayabusa has had a solid five years of development with respect to the turbo kits. I repsect anyone that has the patience to go out there, either one time or year after year.
Here's the question: what's faster, a stock ZX12R with the corbin bags on, or a Concours 14 with the factory bags? ____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted September 25, 2006 12:20 PM
Edited By: Nukedog on 25 Sep 2006 13:22
Flatout - MR9 is 97 MON and MON is about 6points lower than RON so it is actually about 90 R/M method (pump style numbers)...
And usually with oxygenated fuels you have to richen them up due to the extra oxygen not lean them out...
posted September 25, 2006 12:37 PM
I was told from the guy at VP racing fuels MR9 is 87 oct....on the website it says 89 but he told me 87...and yes i thought the same thing but my bike must be running rich because i had to lean it out before I picked up any et...and it has been dyno tuned by Ryan Schnitz.
____________
06 Blue 14
9.008 at 153mph @ 195 suited
quote:I was told from the guy at VP racing fuels MR9 is 87 oct....on the website it says 89 but he told me 87...and yes i thought the same thing but my bike must be running rich because i had to lean it out before I picked up any et...and it has been dyno tuned by Ryan Schnitz.
The website says 87 MON - you really need to learn the difference between MON and RON and then come back to argue with me...
***MR9
MR9 has been the most successful fuel for 4-stroke road racing and Supermoto applications for the last two years. Like MR10, it's targeted for all classes in AMA Pro Racing that allow leaded race fuel. Dyno tests have proven an 8-9% increase in power over pump gas. Used by many premier factory and factory support teams, MR9 fueled a sweep of all AMA road racing championships in 2004 and 2005, as well as the Supermoto, Supermoto Lite and Supermoto Unlimited championships in 2005.
Color: Clear
Oxygenated: Yes
Motor Octane: 87
Specific Gravity: .718 at 60° F***
Motor Octane is MON which is different that Research Octane or RON with is different the R/M method on pumps.
And yes we do know that MR9 is the second best power making fuel they make. MR10 is best...
posted September 25, 2006 06:30 PM
Another thing you can learn from that website is that the most power producing motorcycle fuels are 6-8 percent oxygenated and have a specific gravity of less than .720 - the cars fules specific gravity is much higher..
____________
02 Busa...Turbo...
09 YZF-R6S...
posted September 26, 2006 09:21 PM
Thanks Nukedog. Questions-
If our manual says 91 octane is best... would you get more hp mixing Mr9 wth some 91 pump gas?
Can you help me with an introduction to nitro?
Is nitro only used with fuel? Can nitro be used with gasoline? What one will give you the most power? WIth nitro can I assume you'll have a different flash point? Therefore what type of fuel is best with nitro? Does the change in altitude (less air) matter ie. 6,000 ft.? Thanks--
____________
'There's more living in five minutes flat-out on a bike than some men have in an entire life'.
"The World's Fastest Indian"
One fast red ZX-14,
Three World and four National Land Speed Records,
One faster red and white Cessna Turbo 210
posted September 27, 2006 07:10 AM
If you know me Nuke I dont argue with guys on the net..it's point less. Just trying to tell him what I know/told. I go a quarter at a time i'll let him figure out anything past that...If you want a arguement go talk to FBA or countersteer or something...
____________
06 Blue 14
9.008 at 153mph @ 195 suited
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