posted September 18, 2006 03:25 PM
KSP welcoming folks to ZX14.com with "19 posts"....hmmmm appears the whole crowd came over from landracing?
KSP as I've said, I've no doubt you guys are absolutely the fastest in the world. Maybe if you all had've come over giving flyboy some tips rather than ripping him to shreds and instantly putting him on the defensive I wouldn't think you all are the typical 14 bashers from elsewhere too. You guys are real cool coming over and proving you've been racing since rocks were formed, and us younger newbies on crappie 14 bikes don't know the rules.
posted September 18, 2006 03:26 PM
Edited By: landracing on 18 Sep 2006 16:45
kspz3,
I am by far no expert.. Having some issues with my own stuff...
However I can help anybody that comes and asks. I have plenty of tricks to get extra mph when you have exhausted all motor capabilities...
This is of course on a bike by bike basis and would offer anything I have knowledge, tools, tires, turbos to anybody at the track at anytime. Even Yellow gatorade for those who are thirsty...
Simple stuff can be a difference...
I do know this, on the salt dont every take tire pressure out thinking of getting more traction. Wrong answer.. I have a tire to prove it...
I have raced at Both Maxton and Bonneville.. Each has their own set of rules for bike setup. I will tell you that chassis setups are very different.. And my advice,if anyone every comes and asks for it would be for salt only... I am not experienced enough on the short tracks ie. Maxton or Texas to offer good advice.
posted September 18, 2006 03:41 PM
So do you consider Doug meyer a 14 basher too. He is one of your very own, also telling flyboy to get a grip??? Maybe he is a newbie to the sport too... he has only over 1000 posts here... And I think he;s been to bonneville once or twice.. Which one is it doug.. One or twice?? :wink
Doug has been a faithfull ZX11 - Zx12R and hopefully soon ZX14 lover...
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted September 18, 2006 04:08 PM
What kind of drugs are you on? Maybe speed? Maybe you just need to cool your jets and go post how you 'really showed them' over on your website. You've turned a friendly story about one guy's experiences at Bonneville into a hate thread. I think you are not doing your 'sport' any favors. I know that I wouldn't want to be a part of anything you are involved in, based on the hate you are throwing down.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
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posted September 18, 2006 04:53 PM
From what I've read so far...
A guy goes out to Bonneville during a "bike only" event. It is his first trip to the place and his has a "basically stock", 3 month old ZX-14. He sees a class the bike qualifies for and might even be able to snag a "record" to boot. He runs in that class and indeed, sets a record. Albeit, it was NOT in the more heavily competed class the bike would "normally" run in, but still a record all the same. That seems to not be in dispute.
Okay, just a couple of questions so I can understand this land speed thing.
1. Could a busa not also run in that class?
2. If it could, I would expect that there will be one running in that class, at the next similar event, to "snag" the record, since it's thought by most to be an easy task with a "basically stock" busa, right?
3. Some could say he "cherry picked" the class, since it had a previous record that could probably be beat. Is that some sort of "unethical" thing to do?
4. Should racers avoid running in a class the bike qualifies for, but is not considered to be the "normal" class for said bike?
5. Is it common place for riders, no matter what the conditions, to set records on their first trip to Bonneville?
6. If so, does this happen in many of the classes or just a few?
On second thought, I don't really care what the answers are. I have a world of respect for those that go for land speed records. It's not my cup of tea, but it does not diminish my respect for them.
"Complicate" it as much as one wishes ("adults" tend to do that with all aspects of "life") with this bike did this in this class, that bike did that when conditions were less than optimal or even with that guy has been doing it for the last 20 years. Odds are, his record will not likely stand for as much as a year. It doesn't change the fact that a record has been set and this gentleman will have the honor of having set such a record.
What I do know is that a man who had never been to Bonneville, loaded up a 3 month old, "basically stock" bike and with his friend went to the infamous salt flats. They returned with a record breaking run. It doesn't matter if there are faster bikes or did the run in the "scooter" class. The bike qualified for the class and a first timer can claim that his name will be forever in the record books.
That, my friends, also qualifies for something else... being able to claim they kicked butt at Bonneville. To be in a record book is an "achievement". Others could have run that class and bettered his speed... but they didn't. Plain and simple. I think a 10 year old could even appreciate something as basic as that.
If getting a record in a displacement class that is "higher" the the faster "lower classes" is just "okay" in the eyes of those "experienced ones in the know", I think I'll just stick with my lowly club level road racing (and I just manage a team - I don't personally race). At least with those "little people", they can check their egos at the door and appreciate an accomplishment. No matter how "insignificant". We call it "sportsmanship".
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted September 18, 2006 05:15 PM
stevewfl.........dude.........your cracking me up..........ya keep making
gay banter and using a rainbow symbol............
as far as bikeland.org..............perhaps I should welcome YOU to the board.....
considering I have been a registered member since 2001 and you would be considered
a new member of under 3 months, you registered June 25 06.............
the deal is.............we have more in common than you can imagine...........and we WILL
cross paths..........it will be interesting...............
I dont think we need to compare military service records.........ie grade...time in grade...yrs
of service....number of jumps from a c130..............but I would be happy to if it makes
any difference.............I am proud of my continuing service............
I purposely entered this dialogue to clarify fact........ie this threads opening statement (s).....
I opted to enter into as simply someone offering facts................without mention of my pursuits in lsr............I didnt think they served any purpose in asking questions.................
from the get go............my query (careful steve) mentioned and gave praise to flyboy....congrats on efforts.........throughout the subsequent dialoge I made sure to point
out my respect and admiration for flyboy getting out there and chasing his dreams............
guys.........Doug Meyer has owned more Bonneville production class world records than
anyone on the planet............he has dedicated his life to performance oriented endeavors....
namely.........motorycycles........and 99.9 % of his dedication and passion has been for KAWASAKI................got in the fabled Bonneville 200 mph club on a zx12r.........!!!!
I have raced nothing but Kawasaki at Bonneville since 1991.............same for my brother..........
I am often the biggest Kaw supporters on many sites with regard to Busa vs 12 arguements..............they both run about the same speed..............
the 14 also is right there............I wish it was more.......but its right there with the other two...
and in many cases it hasnt measured up in real world scenarios to be any better, often times less...............that chaps my ass (careful steve)................
I want to see the 14 shine....!!!!!!
that is why my son and I and MANY others are so flabbergasted to see someone talk
about kicking but with mid 190's..............
it is a nice speed for the bike.......relatively speaking............
yes my son could teach many a fair bit........he and my daughter (13 yrs) have been on the salt every year since they were born, Aero (my son) first went to the salt at 7 days old......my wife was induced (as it was about time anyway) to ensure he made the trip.............this is to show a glimpse of the passion most who go to Bonneville have.....
Please dont dig a bigger hole with regard to trying to descredit SCTA records..........the
technical scrutineering is much more involved at an SCTA event..............
Jon and I could show many proofs of illegality from AMA and in some cases FIM from BUB
meets.........but we havent..........thats not what were about............
flyboy..........there have been many more FIM sanctions at SCTA events than at BUB events........
I have run FIM as well, in fact production class..........1350.........and as much as it
pained me......I did it on a Busa.........as we were in Australia looking for big speeds.....
and fine Aus. team asked me to try to get their busa in the record books.....we did
(subj to ratification)...........
we have only one hr to make it back to impound........d/t the fact that in most yrs you must
travel back to the other end.....ie 7 + miles at around 25 mph on trailer......
cheating can be done in any event...........
flyboy..others..........the offer Jon eluded to........goes the same from me........ANYTHING you could need as it pertains to land speed racing, especially Bonneville...........we would love
to help out in any manner possible.......(ps careful with banter about kicking butt on salt
around my kids....trust me on this........after each run...I have to answer to them when it comes to the timing ticket results.....if its subpar......I am informed......BIG TIME..)
flyboy........dude..........we are extremely EXCITED for you and your crew chief........the fire we
have provided will surely result in BIG preparation on your part for next year...........
this site looks like a gold mine of support for your (and others) endeavors...........
I congrats him on his record, anybody that does go and get there and race is an achievement. I have stated this... Great JOB. I will be the first to say this... And welcome to the sport of Land Speed Racing.
HOWEVER.
His facts are wrong in the later posts and I have corrected it.
I have no intentions on bashing his records he got.. FLYBOY great job on racing at BUB's...
I was following the thread for why he thought it was "Kicked Butt"... I still don't know if there was ever a response to that. That was brought up in the top of the thread.. Why do you think it was kick butt??? And it has somewhat gotten off topic from there.
Some have posted factual information including speeds, from different classes and the ZX14R came up short... And you know what, when Flyboy reads this information I can almost bet that he will come back next year and put out some fast speeds with his ZX14R... He did an excellent job first time out... Now next year he has something to aim for... I applaud him... And I can't wait until I see a 14 put out some great numbers...
And I will be the first there to hand him a cold one and shake his hand and say job well done... I will be the first to offer him my pits... We aren't cold hearted as the internet may sound, we are some of the most generous people in the sport. BUt we also like to have internet discussions on what was done, what the speeds were, and have a debate about it... Internet discussion can sometimes be blown out of proportion just because of the dialog...
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Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
posted September 18, 2006 06:07 PM
LR, I understand and respect your desire to insure the facts are clear when it comes to highest speeds achieved. Such information should be pointed out for clarification, even if it does a little "balloon popping". Some call it putting in perspective.
I hope you understand why, at least from my view as explained earlier, he indeed can claim he and his bike "kicked butt". After all, "a record in the hand" easily beats "two distant also rans" in a different class. Not "three" though. Thus that's we must always compete again.
Thank you for the compliment. Considering the source, I am sincerely honored.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted September 18, 2006 06:18 PM
JoeA - when my good friend Don Blair died, my enthusiam died with him. I doubt if you understand, but he was a friend and business partner, and the life of our endeavors died with him. I got where I couldn't stand to look at a 12R anymore and swore I wouldn't buy another ZX anything...A year after that, I sold my ZZR and swore off Kawis altogether (yah right!!). I have NO dreams of the salt anymore. The most I want is a competent sport tourer that I can wick up to 160 when I want to.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted September 18, 2006 06:53 PM
OK, OK,-
Flyboy
My convulsions were not a result of a lack of respect for your effort and result. Just getting there and going through the ordeal is a monumental acheivement.
The laughter was due to watching you deeply insert your foot in your mouth. Joea has, over the years, earned my utmost respect as a Bonneville competitor. He has run (always Kawasaki's) faster on 1000ccs than anybody in various classes. His bike (forgive me, Joe) is basic, not new, not pretty and not loaded with high dollar parts. He just flat gets the job done with hot rod savvy and ingenuity. He works harder out there than anybody I know and never gives up. A lot could be learned from him.
The Amo's are very respectful and protective of Bonnevile tradition and history (as am I) and that history is long and deep. (The first meet was in 1948 and Burt didn't show up with his Indian until nearly 20 years later). I first set foot out there in 1976 and it took me 25 years to go 200 mph on a stock appearing bike. I'm trying to remember when we met, I think he was there with his 1990 ZX-10 and I loaned him a chain. He and I have both run under AMA, SCTA, and FIM sanction and are prettry familiar with the rules and how they came to be
.
Flyboy, like I said, you did good. But "kicking butt" means to me, beating another guy doing the same thing. Coming home with a record, you can be justifiably proud, but wait until the day that there are three other guys there in the same class and you're going back and forth fighting over a tenth of a mile an hour. Be the fastest that year and you've truly kicked some butt. This wasn't meant to be critical or personal, it was FUNNY.
See you on The Salt.
KSP- The answer to your question is this:
The power required to increase speed is a cubed function (the drag rise is a squared function).
To use your example of moving from 195 to 200 mph - you are asking for a 2.56% increase in speed.
The aero drag will rise 1.0256 x 1.0256 or 5.18 %. The power increase needed to overcome this drag rise will be 1.0256 x 1.0256 x 1.0256 or 7.87%.
This means that if you have 200 hp giving you that 195mph, you'll need 215.74 hp to go 200mph. This simple formula works for anything that moves through the air (subsonic, that is) and is amazing in its' consistency.
Doug
posted September 18, 2006 07:27 PM
Doug - Thanks - I got it - now what is the net effect of the decreased drag as compared to the decreased HP that is a result of running at Bonneville.
Now for the history buffs - What was the last motorcycle to hold the outright Land Speed Record based upon a production machine - and also the last one set that was not at Bonneville...... all since have been at Bonneville..... KSP
posted September 18, 2006 07:35 PM
Hey Joe,
Been a while since we talked. Hope things are going good out your way.
Chad, my youngest son rode a stock 14 with an 18 tooth countersprocket to 196.1 at Maxton. The bike had 24 miles on it, still had the break-in oil.
I'm talking stock everything, down to the mudflap. Had to use the pump gas supplied for the production class at Maxton.
I do know there is a bunch of faster production class records but this bike was REALLY production 'cept for the sprocket used to fool the limiter.
As far as I can find out, I don't think there's been anything faster that's this stock. I rode it to 187.5 a couple of times and it was a nice ride for sure.
Couldn't make the 1350 class since it's a 1352. I believe the fastest "true" production 'Busa at Maxton was Guthries 192.xx pass years ago.
I honestly think with some lowering and gearing, 200 may have been possible. Oxygenated fuel would have been some help too.
Not real big numbers, but not too bad for a short course!
Take care,
Dan
posted September 18, 2006 07:40 PM
KSP,
If you mean decreased drag due to lower air density, the effect of that is nowhere near as great as the loss of hp due to that same decrease in density.
posted September 18, 2006 07:52 PM
That is what I meant - and I believe that loss of HP tends to be in the 15 to 17% range - therefore what my question is is there a net effect of the fdecresed drag - for example 85% of the HP loss - that is a real hole in my knowledge in trying to estimate how much I will lose going to Bonneville. Of course racing at Maxton - I believe that you run out of track before you run out of engine - my calculations say about 1.6 or 1.7 miles to get to maximum speed - about 10MPH more than can be achieved in the mile - does that sound right to you - and how does your experieince compare max speed achievable at Maxton with the same at Bonneville - assuming good salt and average mid Spetember air - and will you by any chance be at Maxton this weekend?
KSP
posted September 18, 2006 08:23 PM
I could give you the exact numbers but don't want to dig it up right now. I've done it before and published it on these pages on 2000. The answer can be found in the true airspeed corrections charts for aircraft.
Here's the concept on the distance required- top speed for a vehicle is really the point when there is zero acceleration (that's why weight doesn't matter). This happens when the power available exactly equals the power required. Depending on the performance potential of the vehicle in question, anything less than "more than enough room" becomes an acceleration test, not a top speed test.
It's obvious with something slow. Go out on a 50 hp bike and you'll stop accelerating well before you run out of room at Maxton. Go out on a 500 hp bike and 5 miles is not enough.
If you OPTIMIZE your bike for it's true top speed (gearing etc.) at Maxton what you get is it's maximum speed in that distance. Only when you have too much room can you find the combination that yields a true top speed. That's why Bonneville is so special. It's the only place you can do that.
You really can't compare the two venues. The speeds reached at each are only that- the maximum speed that can be reached at either place.
If I were to estmate what a speed reached a Bonneville with equate to if the same vehicle were run at sea level on a standard day, I would figure it this way-. Given that the difference in density between the two places yields a about 20% recovery in power going back down to sea level, I'd take the cube root of 20% (about 1.065) and multiply my Bonneville speed by that- 6.5%. Example- The ZX 12 that I rode 205 should go 218 in 5 miles at sea level on a 59F day, given enough space. It won't quite, of course, due to the added drag you so correctly pointed out, but then I won't have the 5% of wheelspin I had on the salt, either. I wish I had a place to find out.........
posted September 18, 2006 08:23 PM
joea I'm sure you been on bikeland for years, but I doubt the "ZX14 thread" as I stated. and yes you are the speed hero, I have stated over and over I don't doubt that. and yes you write the rules and go fast. I just think coming over and bashing a newbie and a zx14 bike is gay. and hyping the busa is gay and like I said many of us own or have owned them. I rode with a chick with her on her busa tonight while you are posting yer ghey chit.
so ya joea I don't doubt your a veteran racer, a veteran on bikeland, you have the fastest bike, people bow to you and the ZX14 is slow compared to the 99' busa as you all say.... I don't disagree with you. Yer still a phag. You were probably writing new racing rules while I was out riding with the busa chick tonight. you're like that
I NEVER doubted you and your friends from landracing are the speed Gods!
quote:Hey Joe,
Been a while since we talked. Hope things are going good out your way.
Chad, my youngest son rode a stock 14 with an 18 tooth countersprocket to 196.1 at Maxton. The bike had 24 miles on it, still had the break-in oil.
I'm talking stock everything, down to the mudflap. Had to use the pump gas supplied for the production class at Maxton.
I do know there is a bunch of faster production class records but this bike was REALLY production 'cept for the sprocket used to fool the limiter.
As far as I can find out, I don't think there's been anything faster that's this stock. I rode it to 187.5 a couple of times and it was a nice ride for sure.
Couldn't make the 1350 class since it's a 1352. I believe the fastest "true" production 'Busa at Maxton was Guthries 192.xx pass years ago.
I honestly think with some lowering and gearing, 200 may have been possible. Oxygenated fuel would have been some help too.
Not real big numbers, but not too bad for a short course!
Take care,
Dan
Dan you and Chad did a great job at Maxton ..196.1 is smokin... Hope you hit 200 on your next try and shut down the zx14 bashers for good ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
or would you like to talk about the blue 14 that ran at Speedweek in Aug 06....??
One more thing Joe, I do wanna' talk about the blue 14 you clearly bashed as slow.... we agree on this point, as everyone knows the red ones go faster than the blue and black ones Joe...hehe.... 1 more time:
posted September 18, 2006 08:53 PM
You guys need to get a grip....Flyboy takes his brand new zx14 to the salt and goes 190+...My hat off to the man for even trying....Flyboy keep up the good work and don't let these guys smack talk get you down ...I hear this kind of shit daily from Busas owners but at the track i'm the one on front...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
quote:I could give you the exact numbers but don't want to dig it up right now. I've done it before and published it on these pages on 2000. The answer can be found in the true airspeed corrections charts for aircraft.
Here's the concept on the distance required- top speed for a vehicle is really the point when there is zero acceleration (that's why weight doesn't matter). This happens when the power available exactly equals the power required. Depending on the performance potential of the vehicle in question, anything less than "more than enough room" becomes an acceleration test, not a top speed test.
It's obvious with something slow. Go out on a 50 hp bike and you'll stop accelerating well before you run out of room at Maxton. Go out on a 500 hp bike and 5 miles is not enough.
If you OPTIMIZE your bike for it's true top speed (gearing etc.) at Maxton what you get is it's maximum speed in that distance. Only when you have too much room can you find the combination that yields a true top speed. That's why Bonneville is so special. It's the only place you can do that.
You really can't compare the two venues. The speeds reached at each are only that- the maximum speed that can be reached at either place.
If I were to estmate what a speed reached a Bonneville with equate to if the same vehicle were run at sea level on a standard day, I would figure it this way-. Given that the difference in density between the two places yields a about 20% recovery in power going back down to sea level, I'd take the cube root of 20% (about 1.065) and multiply my Bonneville speed by that- 6.5%. Example- The ZX 12 that I rode 205 should go 218 in 5 miles at sea level on a 59F day, given enough space. It won't quite, of course, due to the added drag you so correctly pointed out, but then I won't have the 5% of wheelspin I had on the salt, either. I wish I had a place to find out.........
Thanks Doug....I appreciate you taking the time to explain..... very helpful.
KSP
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Posts: 3212
posted September 18, 2006 11:59 PM
Okay swft. Points have been made, questions answered and Doug has replied. You can pull the trigger now.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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posted September 18, 2006 03:25 PM
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