Y2KZX12R
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posted November 25, 2006 03:07 PM
Fish, I agree about the legal aspect.
But I think the name of the thread made some people assume he was talking about sharing HIS map that he just had done and said he would share. He has every right to do that.
But I can understand brock asking people not to share "his" map. But in reality the map is only usefull if you are using his pipe or a copy of his pipe. So he gets the pipe sale anyway. Or you need to copy his pipe and make your own.
Really he should be asking dynojet to make the file lockable in the power commander. Not that that cant be hacked, but it would stop copying of maps untill the hack became known.
Theres tuning software out there that can do this with a key stroke.
I can lock my GM computer and prevent reads or writes to it ever again.
But instead I've passed along my tuned supercharged LS-1 files that i spent hundreds of dollars on and many dyno runs and a lot of hours developing. Several other people with HP Tuners and superchargers are running my recalibrated MAF charts.
The next generation of Bike computers will use an operating system and will have direct access read and write abilities as well as serial data logging. The only thing holding them back is cost. But if the 4 jap makers all got together and used the same programable ECU then the cost might be reasonable. In any case it would make tuning much better.
Shit, you could use HP tuners and a 4 cyl ecu from a gm car and run a zx12r in closed loop.
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fish_antlers
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posted November 26, 2006 07:39 AM
Y2K... totally agree...
BTW... cant remember if I ever asked (might have) ... did you ever get the shirt?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 26, 2006 09:05 AM
Yes, thanks again. Maybe next year I can get down there for the race.
Had a family wedding party here at the house this year on that weekend... Its always somthing.
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Y2KZX12R
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fastestbusaaround
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posted November 26, 2006 09:13 AM
quote:
Y2KZX12R
Your post is SOOOOOOOOOO wrong and INACURATE on so many levels that it is hardly worth discussing.
1. Consider the legalities. Yes, there are laws in place to protect intellectual property. I guaranteeeeeee you that if you share copies of the Microsoft software that you "own" with 10,000 of your closest friends, Microsoft will nail you to the wall.
2. Consider the moral issues. Even if Brock can't enforce the legalities, the person knows full well that the map has been provided for that person's use only, By sharing the map, you are violating a TRUST with Brock. It's OK to steal a map (?) but let someone steal a bike and get away with it and watch the outcry on the boards about how much they hate thieves!
I can only hope that your opinion is limited to a very small percentage of people.
I couldn't have said it better myself...this guy's a real dick...maybe if the money was coming out of his pocket, he'd understand, the fucking tool...and he is technically and legally wrong at every level too....Brock's work is 100% protected and if he ever did manage to get DJ to encrypt or protect the maps, I'd be totally in favor of it myself. Enough of this map mooching shit...pay for it or shut the fuck up. No one has the right to expect free maps, just because guys like Brock spend hundreds of hours on building them. Even if his basemaps were the start of someone else's finished maps, it's his work. You can't just decompile the work of others and then use that as your own.
Fish, though I support the sharing and posting of maps here at Bikeland, I don't support the theft of someone else's work, especially someone who supports this site. If someone pays to build their own maps, that's one thing, but clearly it's not the case with Brock's supplied maps.
Brock, you need to include a real legal copyright statement within the maps & software as well as in writing, to protect your hard work. My company builds software and compiles data for a living; I know exactly how you feel about this. I don't want to see this get all fucked up over a few losers who believe it's their right to publish and share the work of others...
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fastestbusaaround
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posted November 26, 2006 09:26 AM
quote:
I'm not at all 100% convinced that if Brock (or anyone else for that matter) provides you with a map, that they can tell you you're not allowed to share it.
In fact I believe this is legally incorrect, and the map, once purchased is the property of the owner to do with as he/she pleases.
Brock et al can "ask" that people don't share maps, however demanding that people do not share them and laying legal claim to them are a different matter.
I'd be willing to bet a ZX-14.com shirt that Brock and anyone else who claims their maps are their private copyrighted property are wrong and that this whole thing is really about nothing.
You can write anything you want on it, but if people buy it, it's theirs to do with as they please IMHO.
-Remember.. we're NOT talking about a Hollywood blockbuster or an MP3 of a Beattles song... we're talking about a spreadsheet.
I bet you're wrong...and I'll put up a lot more than a T-shirt too, I'm in the software/data business, but that's besides the point. Brock isn't making any legal statement in this thread or in his maps. He can also do as he pleases with regards to his maps and the consequences. You shouldn't expect him to support you either when you don't support him and clearly you don't. Just my 2 cents...
You can't suck and blow at the same time Fish...unless you're a politician, are you a politician? 
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fish_antlers
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posted November 26, 2006 10:04 AM
fba... you're on for the bet ... 1 t-shirt vs (if your so confident) that fancy new GPS you got in stock.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted November 26, 2006 10:37 AM
No dude...you gotta put up what you want back...not a t-shirt for a GPS....hardly fair. What the fuck do I have to gain when I win...a T-shirt? Make it as interesting for me as it will be for you and you have a deal...I can buy your T-shirt for 35 bucks...you'd have to pay 900 or so for that fancy new GPS (Zumo 550). In the unlikely event that I lose, why should I take the short end of the deal...do I look like a charity case?
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osti33
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posted November 26, 2006 10:39 AM
 Edited By: osti33 on 26 Nov 2006 10:40
quote:
quote:
Y2KZX12R
Your post is SOOOOOOOOOO wrong and INACURATE on so many levels that it is hardly worth discussing.
1. Consider the legalities. Yes, there are laws in place to protect intellectual property. I guaranteeeeeee you that if you share copies of the Microsoft software that you "own" with 10,000 of your closest friends, Microsoft will nail you to the wall.
2. Consider the moral issues. Even if Brock can't enforce the legalities, the person knows full well that the map has been provided for that person's use only, By sharing the map, you are violating a TRUST with Brock. It's OK to steal a map (?) but let someone steal a bike and get away with it and watch the outcry on the boards about how much they hate thieves!
I can only hope that your opinion is limited to a very small percentage of people.
I couldn't have said it better myself...this guy's a real dick...maybe if the money was coming out of his pocket, he'd understand, the fucking tool...and he is technically and legally wrong at every level too....Brock's work is 100% protected and if he ever did manage to get DJ to encrypt or protect the maps, I'd be totally in favor of it myself. Enough of this map mooching shit...pay for it or shut the fuck up. No one has the right to expect free maps, just because guys like Brock spend hundreds of hours on building them. Even if his basemaps were the start of someone else's finished maps, it's his work. You can't just decompile the work of others and then use that as your own.
Fish, though I support the sharing and posting of maps here at Bikeland, I don't support the theft of someone else's work, especially someone who supports this site. If someone pays to build their own maps, that's one thing, but clearly it's not the case with Brock's supplied maps.
Brock, you need to include a real legal copyright statement within the maps & software as well as in writing, to protect your hard work. My company builds software and compiles data for a living; I know exactly how you feel about this. I don't want to see this get all fucked up over a few losers who believe it's their right to publish and share the work of others...
Fastestbusaaround, did you even read what Y2KZX12R posted you retard? I quoted and highlighted the important parts for you just like I did for lucky14.
Y2KZX12R posted...
"This is bullshit. The person who paid to have a map made owns the fuckin map not the guy who was paid to produce it.
Intelectual property (software) someone paid to have made for them belongs to them. Not the programmer who wrote it. This is why good tuning programs can lock the ecu's so the software cannot be extracted. (hptuners, ls1 edit, etc.) If this wasnt the case then General motors would be sueing HP Tuners, and LS1 Edit, to stop reading the software and operating systems from thier General motors computers.
Dude, its been to court."
Y2KZX12R NEVER EVER said anything about "copying or stealing" Brocks map. He said if you pay someone to make a map FOR YOU then YOU own it. NOT the person who made it.
Y2KZX12R is also about as far from a " real dick" or "tool" or "loser" as you can get. He has helped more people on this board than you can imagine. He actually contributes a ton to this borad. Unlike you who just calls people names and jumps people because they don't know how to post a picture. No wonder every thead you post in ends up in the smackhouse.
You seem like every other keyboard hero who likes to call people names from the safety of there keyboard. I serious doubt you would say any of that shit to his( or anyone else's) face.
You are just another internet troll as far as I can tell!!
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fastestbusaaround
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posted November 26, 2006 11:01 AM
I read it Ostrich, you obviously have no clue what you're rambling about and if you were a lawyer, I'd make sure to steer clear of you, unless I actually wanted to lose.  Oh, and if I referred to him as a "Dick", I apologize, I was referring to you... 
"Brock, its totally legal for someone to read your map from a power commander and share it with the world."
Good luck on that one....take a legal course or two...then share your "legal" opinions with the rest of the educated world. I'm sure many software corporations wouldn't agree with either of you, but apparently, they they know less about copyright and law than you.
Yes, I'm just another Internet Troll...uh uh...oh and by the way, I do in everyday life what I do on the boards, unlike some others and I'm not afraid to tell you or anyone else to their face just what I think of them...now fuck off  ...and if I happen to meet you one day, I'll tell you the same thing in person without any reservation.
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fish_antlers
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posted November 26, 2006 11:11 AM
FBA, first off Y2K was agreeing with me, not you... 2nd he's a founding member of this site from way back in (you guessed it Y2K), and he's hardly a dick.
With regards to the bet... a shirt for a GPS is more than fair since you are so confident in your knowledge of US intellectual property law, it should be a shoe in for you... heck... you're so confident you're right you should be willing to put up the title to your bike..
I mean... if you're right then you've got nothing to lose and it's just a mere "token" guesture.
Pony up, big man!
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tonytooth
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posted November 26, 2006 11:15 AM
Can someone respond to the claim made by Dynojet?
Here's the thread http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=26379
Dynojet claims that the ZX14 stock map is not serving fuel from 6500rpm-3500rpm and 0-4% throttle. I can actually hear the fuel come on if I am in that range and I slowly roll on the throttle.
Also, I would like to respond to the claims that I am a thief (i'm assuming that is directed towards me). When I was first given the map, I wasn't even sure if this map was done by Brock (there's no way of telling). My tuner did not use this map as a baseline due to the issue with the strange map points. He had credibility issues with it especially after speaking with Dynojet and they confirmed this lack of fuel issue. Niehter one of us were confident that this was actually one of his maps. We also wondered if it was a Brock's map that had been tampered with. I didn't personally get it directly from Brock himself so I had a lot of suspicions and little faith in it.
This is an issue of trust being broken. Trust and theft are 2 different things. Legally speaking, if there is no copyright on his maps then doesn't that give anyone the right to share it? I'm not a lawer, I'm just curious.
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tonytooth
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posted November 26, 2006 11:32 AM
BTW, if you have Brock's map, you can download mine and compare it to his using the Dynojet software and see there is no resemblance. Using his map as a baseline would have only been more work.
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osti33
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posted November 26, 2006 11:33 AM
Edited By: osti33 on 26 Nov 2006 12:18
quote:
I read it Ostrich, you obviously have no clue what you're rambling about and if you were a lawyer, I'd make sure to steer clear of you, unless I actually wanted to lose. Oh, and if I referred to him as a "Dick", I apologize, I was referring to you...
"Brock, its totally legal for someone to read your map from a power commander and share it with the world."
Good luck on that one....take a legal course or two...then share your "legal" opinions with the rest of the educated world. I'm sure many software corporations wouldn't agree with either of you, but apparently, they they know less about copyright and law than you.
Yes, I'm just another Internet Troll...uh uh...oh and by the way, I do in everyday life what I do on the boards, unlike some others and I'm not afraid to tell you or anyone else to their face just what I think of them...now fuck off ...and if I happen to meet you one day, I'll tell you the same thing in person without any reservation.
Ok. Read slowly and try to keep up this time. I'll keep it short. That sould help you.
If I PAY Brock or you or ANYONE else to make a map for me I OWN IT!
I can give it to whomever I want. I can copy ten million times. I can post it on the internet. The person whom I paid to make it for me has ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO IT!
Argue that point with me legal genius. If you are in the software business you should know better.
As far as meeting me goes I have been to several bikeland events. How many have you been to?? I will be at the Indy show in Febuary with several bikeland members you can meet me there or you can meet me in March at the next Texas Mile. I will be at the next bikeland grudge race as well. I would love to debate this with you face to face. I'm sure you would really impress me with your legal knowledge. 
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tonytooth
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posted November 26, 2006 11:41 AM
If I personally change 1 number on that map, it would surely be mine then I would think. Also, it seems it would be very difficult to make a map your own property conisdering that it is possible someone could make a custom map and get the same results you did. I know it would be very unlikely that every number would match but it is possible.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 26, 2006 11:59 AM
quote:
You didn't read Y2KZX12R's post very carefully did you?? He is 100% correct. You might want to read it again.
I guess he thought I said something else?
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osti33
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posted November 26, 2006 12:01 PM
quote:
quote:
You didn't read Y2KZX12R's post very carefully did you?? He is 100% correct. You might want to read it again.
I guess he thought I said something else?
I guess so...
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 26, 2006 12:10 PM
Anyway, Fish, hows the map repository comming? I have a sweet map to post for 1375cc, stock cams, and a Yosh pipe for all to use. 
I guess these guys http://www.hptuners.com/customers/tune.php better shut down thier site because they copied and modified the GM software in the Delphi ECM.
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osti33
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posted November 26, 2006 12:16 PM
quote:
Anyway, Fish, hows the map repository comming? I have a sweet map to post for 1375cc, stock cams, and a Yosh pipe for all to use.
I guess these guys http://www.hptuners.com/customers/tune.php better shut down thier site because they copied and modified the GM software in the Delphi ECM.
Yep. LS1 edit and EFI live http://www.efilive.com/ better shut down too since they do the same thing.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 26, 2006 12:18 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 26 Nov 2006 12:20
quote:
Your post is SOOOOOOOOOO wrong and INACURATE on so many levels that it is hardly worth discussing.
Lucky, How so?
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fastestbusaaround
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posted November 26, 2006 03:41 PM
quote:
FBA, first off Y2K was agreeing with me, not you... 2nd he's a founding member of this site from way back in (you guessed it Y2K), and he's hardly a dick.
With regards to the bet... a shirt for a GPS is more than fair since you are so confident in your knowledge of US intellectual property law, it should be a shoe in for you... heck... you're so confident you're right you should be willing to put up the title to your bike..
I mean... if you're right then you've got nothing to lose and it's just a mere "token" guesture.
Pony up, big man!
Sure Fish...I always take bets like that...you put up a 10-dollar shirt and I put up a $900.00 GPS...dream on; not the 1st time you offered bets like that...find another sucker, this one's not baiting...
I didn't notice you putting up title to your bike...so why the fuck would I for a 10-dollar shirt?
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lucky14
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posted November 26, 2006 05:29 PM
quote:
quote:
Your post is SOOOOOOOOOO wrong and INACURATE on so many levels that it is hardly worth discussing.
Lucky, How so?
You later posted this, so it appeared that we were on the same page:
quote:
I will agree that if someone give you thier map and asks you not to share it then you shouldnt. I have several maps from people for the zx12r and was asked not to share on a few of them. So of course I didnt share those maps.
Actually any maps I've personally sent to people have been maps i made or maps i had made.
I have no problem with brock asking people not to share his map. I totally understand his request and If he sent me his map and asked me not to share I wouldnt either.
So I guess theres no real argument here is there?
Whether Brock's "requirement" is legally binding won't be known unless he takes someone to court, and I don't see that happening. Still, it is a moot point to me. A handshake agreement SHOULD be good enough.
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If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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CaptainZX14
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posted November 26, 2006 05:45 PM
quote:
Whether Brock's "requirement" is legally binding won't be known unless he takes someone to court, and I don't see that happening. Still, it is a moot point to me. A handshake agreement SHOULD be good enough.
I think you guys are really missing the point here. I don't think it has anything to do with the law or the courts! It is a matter of trust between a service provider and his customers. If you guys want Brock to go away and not provide his current service, then it looks to me like you are off to a real good start! Look out for Brock interests and I believe that Brock will continue to look after your interests. If not, he just might change his business practices overnight!
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fastestbusaaround
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posted November 26, 2006 05:55 PM
+1
I agree whole heartedly with you El-Capitaino...it's all about what he is asking from his customers, not the legalities of it all.
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CaptainZX14
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posted November 26, 2006 06:53 PM
quote:
+1
I agree whole heartedly with you El-Capitaino...it's all about what he is asking from his customers, not the legalities of it all.
Dayum FBA! I think that is the first time we actually agreed on something! 
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smokinZX14
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posted November 26, 2006 07:14 PM
Someone lock this thread please.............
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