posted November 22, 2006 08:09 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 22 Nov 2006 21:55
Topic editted to remove screenshots of fuel maps by the direct request of Brock Davidson....
I've done this at his request, however after reviewing this thread it is my understanding (and I hope that Tony can clarify this) that the screenshot of the map he posted is a custom map that Tony paid to have made.
If this is the case then I invite Tony to please repost the screenshots, with my apologies for removing them.
Honestly I am a little confused. I have Brock emailing me asking me to remove screenshots of maps which he says are his, and Tony who is posting them stating he had them made.
Either way I'd like some clarification.
If Tony's dyno guy used Brock's maps as a baseline and made new maps, then as far as Bikeland is concerned they're new maps and are free to post.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted November 22, 2006 11:49 PM
No prob Fish , I offered to remove them myself.
When I posted them, I wasn't sure they were infact Brock's maps. If that's the case, I understand (kinda).
Copyright maps, it's only a matter of time .
____________ MySpace
posted November 23, 2006 06:22 AM
Fish,
This disclaimer comes at the beginning of ALL of my maps:
Attention: MAP SHARING IS **NOT PERMITTED**----Anyone suspected of sharing Brock's Performance Maps (or modified versions of original Brock maps) will be TERMINATED from the Map Support, Technical Support and Discounted Additional Purchase Programs! See notes below.
It goes on to say:
DO NOT DISTRIBUTE.....this map is property of Brock Davidson Enterprises, Inc.
Brock's Performance will supply maps to approved customers on an individual basis.
DO NOT SHARE THIS MAP! We have worked hundreds of hours and spent countless dollars to perfect our mapping.....we can not afford to have it provided to non-customers. (There is also a VERY good chance that one of our maps will be used to out run YOU if they are provided to others!)
This map was configured according to our notes for your application.
Good Luck and GO FAST.
Brock
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fish,
We do not charge for our map support. It is an ongoing service as a result of a purchase....if the rules are not followed- the service will be terminated.
posted November 23, 2006 06:34 AM
Brock... that's not the point... if Tony paid for a new map to be made from yours, (or anyone elses for that matter) you have no claim to the new map. Tony is free to post the new map provided it's a new map he paid to have made.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted November 23, 2006 08:17 PM
wouldn't all maps with similar parts be nearly identical? seems like there would only be 1 way to get the correct A/F ratio.
posted November 25, 2006 05:45 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 25 Nov 2006 06:22
This is bullshit. The person who paid to have a map made owns the fuckin map not the guy who was paid to produce it.
Brock, its totally legal for someone to read your map from a power commander and share it with the world.
Intelectual property (software) someone paid to have made for them belongs to them. Not the programmer who wrote it. This is why good tuning programs can lock the ecu's so the software cannot be extracted. (hptuners, ls1 edit, etc.) If this wasnt the case then General motors would be sueing HP Tuners, and LS1 Edit, to stop reading the software and operating systems from thier General motors computers.
Dude, its been to court.
Besides, dumping in a map from someone elses bike isnt the perfect map for every bike with the same pipe etc. They still vary bike to bike and its still best to have your own map made. So "dyno guys" will still be needed.
And on another point, IF the zx14 ecu is like the 2000 zx12r ecu, then at ZERO throttle above 6500 the ecu shuts OFF the injectors. There is zero fuel being sprayed.
This was the whole point of my skewed map I made back in 01 for the 12r. It never saw 0 throttle by offsetting the tps calibration. It worked as far as removing the off/on throttle surge when rolling back into the throttle mid turn at 8000 rpms but caused surging in the 5% throttle range so I stopped using it. It was found (vince hill i think) that if you over fueled the engine when the injectors kicked back in, the "on" surge of the injectors coming back on was softened becasue the engine was very rich. This was a better solution.
As far as the numbers in the dynojet maps... they are numbers that dont corralate to anything. They are not an actual accurate % of anything. A positive number adds fuel to the stock ecu and a negative removes fuel from the stock ecu program. But the actual numbers are arbitrairy. And a zero in a cell doesnt change the stock fuel delivery in that cell.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
posted November 25, 2006 06:28 AM
I bet folks like Brock has already asked dynojet for a method to password protected and encrypt files .
I do believe that the same mods on any 14 would need the same map. The biggest variable would probably be the fuel being used. maybe the calibration of sensors can vary some , but i would be they are within 1% of each other.
Maybe the tuners post maps that are borderline rich to be safe, and that is why a custom tune makes a little more power.
posted November 25, 2006 06:44 AM
Well Roy you have mechanical varriables in production engines. Such as cam timing, compression, valve adjustment, core casting shift, etc. Ports flow different from port to port on a head let alone casting to casting.
But your right, its splitting hairs at that point. And most tuners will error on the safe side and set the map rich.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
posted November 25, 2006 07:02 AM
I really do understand Brock's position. He invested a lot of time and money into the development of his maps, and he is willing to share with those that buy his products, I have no problems with that. I have never used a Brock map, but I am sure it is a top-of-the-line support map. A custom tune is needed for every bike, but a support map sure is nice to have until you get the custom. If you guys share Brock's maps without going through Brock, he may not upgrade them in the future. I don't share a map when the person that gave it to me says don't share. You should take care of Brock and his wishes regardless of what the courts have ruled on, regardless of what the law says.
Your post is SOOOOOOOOOO wrong and INACURATE on so many levels that it is hardly worth discussing.
1. Consider the legalities. Yes, there are laws in place to protect intellectual property. I guaranteeeeeee you that if you share copies of the Microsoft software that you "own" with 10,000 of your closest friends, Microsoft will nail you to the wall.
2. Consider the moral issues. Even if Brock can't enforce the legalities, the person knows full well that the map has been provided for that person's use only, By sharing the map, you are violating a TRUST with Brock. It's OK to steal a map (?) but let someone steal a bike and get away with it and watch the outcry on the boards about how much they hate thieves!
I can only hope that your opinion is limited to a very small percentage of people.
____________
You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
posted November 25, 2006 07:21 AM
Edited By: osti33 on 25 Nov 2006 07:24
quote:Y2KZX12R
Your post is SOOOOOOOOOO wrong and INACURATE on so many levels that it is hardly worth discussing.
1. Consider the legalities. Yes, there are laws in place to protect intellectual property. I guaranteeeeeee you that if you share copies of the Microsoft software that you "own" with 10,000 of your closest friends, Microsoft will nail you to the wall.
2. Consider the moral issues. Even if Brock can't enforce the legalities, the person knows full well that the map has been provided for that person's use only, By sharing the map, you are violating a TRUST with Brock. It's OK to steal a map (?) but let someone steal a bike and get away with it and watch the outcry on the boards about how much they hate thieves!
I can only hope that your opinion is limited to a very small percentage of people.
You didn't read Y2KZX12R's post very carefully did you?? He is 100% correct. You might want to read it again.
Here I cut and pasted even highlighted the important part for you.
Y2KZX12R posted
"Intelectual property (software) someone paid to have made for them belongs to them. Not the programmer who wrote it. This is why good tuning programs can lock the ecu's so the software cannot be extracted. (hptuners, ls1 edit, etc.) If this wasnt the case then General motors would be sueing HP Tuners, and LS1 Edit, to stop reading the software and operating systems from thier General motors computers.
quote:This is bullshit. The person who paid to have a map made owns the fuckin map not the guy who was paid to produce it.
Brock, its totally legal for someone to read your map from a power commander and share it with the world.
Intelectual property (software) someone paid to have made for them belongs to them. Not the programmer who wrote it. This is why good tuning programs can lock the ecu's so the software cannot be extracted. (hptuners, ls1 edit, etc.) If this wasnt the case then General motors would be sueing HP Tuners, and LS1 Edit, to stop reading the software and operating systems from thier General motors computers.
Dude, its been to court.
Besides, dumping in a map from someone elses bike isnt the perfect map for every bike with the same pipe etc. They still vary bike to bike and its still best to have your own map made. So "dyno guys" will still be needed.
And on another point, IF the zx14 ecu is like the 2000 zx12r ecu, then at ZERO throttle above 6500 the ecu shuts OFF the injectors. There is zero fuel being sprayed.
This was the whole point of my skewed map I made back in 01 for the 12r. It never saw 0 throttle by offsetting the tps calibration. It worked as far as removing the off/on throttle surge when rolling back into the throttle mid turn at 8000 rpms but caused surging in the 5% throttle range so I stopped using it. It was found (vince hill i think) that if you over fueled the engine when the injectors kicked back in, the "on" surge of the injectors coming back on was softened becasue the engine was very rich. This was a better solution.
As far as the numbers in the dynojet maps... they are numbers that dont corralate to anything. They are not an actual accurate % of anything. A positive number adds fuel to the stock ecu and a negative removes fuel from the stock ecu program. But the actual numbers are arbitrairy. And a zero in a cell doesnt change the stock fuel delivery in that cell.
[Brock, its totally legal for someone to read your map from a power commander and share it with the world.]
That statement is mostlikey true BUT is it fare to Brock ? I mean he spend countless hours making the maps, so i understand how he feels about people giving away his maps ... He offers a discount on his pipe here on Bikeland and if you buy one of his pipes you get all the maps for free ..Plus you get a discount on all the products he sells.........Sounds like a great deal to me ... Brocks Maps are working great for me, could i get a 1 or 2 hp gain from a custom map?? Maybe but it would cost me 250+ bucks to find out....You could spend 1000s of dollars finding the best map and still not be as good as Brocks maps......Brock has 500 miles of dyno miles and 90+ 1/4 miles passes on his zx14 to give us the best maps out there ...Will your dyno tuner do that ? will he do it for free? If you buy a pipe from your dyno tuner will he give you 40 hours of free dyno time ? .......Brock has done more for the zx14 owner than anybody !!! So is brock asking to much not to share his maps ? We need his testing and tunning skills , if we give away his maps to anyone that asks do you think he will keep doing what he has been doing? We need him and he needs us, so lets be fare to Brock and his request......Smokin...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
posted November 25, 2006 07:26 AM
Edited By: osti33 on 25 Nov 2006 07:43
Smokin,
With all due respect "fair" has nothing to do with this. They were discussing the legality of it. If Tony had a custom map made and wants to post it on the internet for everyone in the world to see that is completely up to him.
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
posted November 25, 2006 07:28 AM
+1, I think it is a fair request form Brock. Plus if there are other pipes out there as good as Brocks then have that pipe manufacturer send you a map. How many pipes come with a map
posted November 25, 2006 07:40 AM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 25 Nov 2006 07:44
quote:Smokin,
With all due respect "fair" has nothing to do with this. If Tony had a custom map made and wants to post it on the internet for everyone in the world to see that is completely up to him.
Fair has everything to do with it.....Screw the laws......Tony is a good friend of mine and we have taked about this very thing.......Tony had no clue where the map came from, it was sent to him by email after asking for a no flies map...Tony had no clue if it was a Brocks map or someones custom map.... When he asked for that no flies map he got 5 maps from 5 different people and we both looked at them and they were all different !!!! He asked me what to do and i said well you are getting it custom mapped in 3 days so just pick one , toss in it your P/C so you will be safe to make it to your tunner....The map Tony posted was not his custom map, it was one of the 5 that was sent to him by email...We still have no clue where that map came from or who made it ....Yes if Tony wants to post HIS custom map he can ..He paided for it and can do as he pleases with it...Smokin..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
posted November 25, 2006 08:07 AM
I agree that if you pay for a "map" then you can do with it what you like, but Brock does let everyone know who purchases his product that the maps are for their use only. We didn't pay to have a map done, we paid for a product that included updates to a map to support that product.
As for the map that Tony originally posted, I believe in the notes section it specified that it was a BD Enterprises map. So it would make sense that Brock believes it's his map. Now were the values in the map actually Brock's....I don't know.
But Brock is just trying to protect his investment in a product his company sells and his "total support" to those that choose to purchase his product.
I can see his point, his name is on his product and his reputation of producing products and services to make bikes faster than everyone elses is on the line, and both name and reputation sell his products.
Bently said it best......who else provides map support and all the other support Brock supplies with their pipe purchase??????????
"Yes if Tony wants to post HIS custom map he can ..He paided for it and can do as he pleases with it...Smokin.. "
Isn't that EXACTLY what I said??
Yes but that wasn't my main point ..Main point was the map he posted wasn't HIS custom map.....It's was one of the 5 that he got by email...
I feel that Tony has been treated unfairly over this map deal ....He just asked for a No Flies Map... And 5 people sent him Maps..If there were any rules broken they were not by Tony ...To be fair with Tony he had no clue about Brocks no share policy at the time of the post. Later when i got my Brocks pipe and maps i informed him of brocks rules on his Maps . When Tony found out that it was a no no he offered to remove the post....Smokin..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
posted November 25, 2006 09:24 AM
Well now it all makes sense!!!...Thanks for clarifying the situation Lee...Now let's stop ____________ Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
posted November 25, 2006 11:48 AM
I will agree that if someone give you thier map and asks you not to share it then you shouldnt. I have several maps from people for the zx12r and was asked not to share on a few of them. So of course I didnt share those maps.
Actually any maps I've personally sent to people have been maps i made or maps i had made.
I have no problem with brock asking people not to share his map. I totally understand his request and If he sent me his map and asked me not to share I wouldnt either.
So I guess theres no real argument here is there?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
posted November 25, 2006 11:58 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 25 Nov 2006 11:59
I'm not at all 100% convinced that if Brock (or anyone else for that matter) provides you with a map, that they can tell you you're not allowed to share it.
In fact I believe this is legally incorrect, and the map, once purchased is the property of the owner to do with as he/she pleases.
Brock et al can "ask" that people don't share maps, however demanding that people do not share them and laying legal claim to them are a different matter.
I'd be willing to bet a ZX-14.com shirt that Brock and anyone else who claims their maps are their private copyrighted property are wrong and that this whole thing is really about nothing.
You can write anything you want on it, but if people buy it, it's theirs to do with as they please IMHO.
-Remember.. we're NOT talking about a Hollywood blockbuster or an MP3 of a Beattles song... we're talking about a spreadsheet.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted November 25, 2006 12:03 PM
Good, Rick. But its comming apart soon. Sence I had to go with the 24v starting anyway now I can bring the compression back up to 13.7-13.8 and actually do more chamber work.
I'm guessing It cost me about 10-12 hp from the compression drop I did to try and avoid the extra battery and wireing.
I'm going to replace the tranny bearings also and a billet clutch basket before I blow the stocker.
The best thing about winter comming is I get to take apart the 12r engine. ____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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posted November 22, 2006 08:09 PM
Edited By: 
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