dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted November 13, 2006 10:54 PM
I think he meant five owners of 5 bikes, each bike was dynoed :P
  
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lietoome
Needs a job
Posts: 2033
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posted November 14, 2006 08:00 AM
my brock gen3 map was way too rich down low. It worked fine, but a good custom map is the best. I'm also at 4K ft, so it had to be changed up a bit. The tuner just adjusted it down low, tweaked the mid, and didin't touch the top of the map.
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted November 14, 2006 02:26 PM
TonyTooth was your stock baseline horsepower??
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted November 14, 2006 03:27 PM
My mph in the 1/4 tells me my Brock map is right on.
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted November 15, 2006 06:08 AM
tonytooth,
how about letting me in on the "someone "who let you have my map.....
Brock
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Brent Davis
Zone Head
Posts: 504
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posted November 15, 2006 09:57 AM
quote:
tonytooth,
how about letting me in on the "someone "who let you have my map.....
Brock
LOL. I was thinking the same thing. I myself would never give out one of the many maps that have been sent to me. This guy has dynoed and given out these maps to customers that buy his product but someone just had to give out their map. Oh well, what do you expect. There's no loyalty from that person at all.
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 15, 2006 11:15 AM
 Edited By: tonytooth on 15 Nov 2006 11:24
quote:
TonyTooth was your stock baseline horsepower??
My baseline with the Brock map was 173 so I actually lost 1 horsepower after the custom map. This was due to fattening up the fuel in a couple areas. I know it sounds crazy and it may make some people mad that they lost horsepower after there $250 custom tune but the dyno isn't the place to go fast the track is. Dyno numbers aren't the only thing to go by when you want to go fast. If that were the case then I would be kickin everybody's butt around here with my second dyno run months later.
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 15, 2006 11:16 AM
Edited By: tonytooth on 15 Nov 2006 11:26
quote:
tonytooth,
how about letting me in on the "someone "who let you have my map.....
Brock
Of course I couldn't do that. Safe to assume this is one of your maps then? Would you mind explaining the reason that you have map adjustments in those areas I have circled above? From what I understand, those numbers aren't doing anything. I'm no expert so please forgive me if I sound uneducated but say for instance... throttle position 0 at 6750rpm you have 12% increase in fuel according to that map above. The ZX14 offers zero fuel here so if you increase that by 12% you would still get zero (0 X 12% = 0).
BTW, I remove that pic of the map from this thread if you would like. I did not know for certain that this was infact one of your maps.
Thanks.
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted November 15, 2006 02:56 PM
quote:
quote:
tonytooth,
how about letting me in on the "someone "who let you have my map.....
Brock
The ZX14 offers zero fuel here so if you increase that by 12% you would still get zero (0 X 12% = 0).
Tony your not understanding how that works. Its not 12% of the map value number, its 12% more than what the ECU was ALLREADY SUPPLYING for fuel. If a specific map cell is 0 and then you change it to 5. You are adding more fuel. Your adding more fuel in comparising to what the ECU was supplying. If it has a 0 in specific cell then the power commander is not adding or subtracting any more fuel than the ECU was ALL READY doing...
With your thinking a map with all zeros would be supplying absolutely no fuel, but thats not correct because we all know that is simply a ZERO MAP with no added or subtracted fueling....
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 15, 2006 03:23 PM
Edited By: tonytooth on 15 Nov 2006 15:29
ZXLNT,
With all do respect, I think you are incorrect.
You said: "Its not 12% of the map value number, its 12% more than what the ECU was ALLREADY SUPPLYING for fuel."
The ECU is supplying zero fuel there.
If the stock ECU is zero and you increase the fuel 12%, YOU STILL HAVE ZERO.
You can't just say I am adding 12% of fuel.......12% of what?
You have to have a figure when dealing with percentages and that figure we are talking about is zero.
If I asked for a 12% raise in income and I make $0.00 then guess how much my raise will be?
You have to have available fuel to be able to modify it with a Power Commander. There is no fuel available in that position. You can put all the numbers you want in those areas but if the stock ECU does not offer fuel in that particular area then your numbers will not affect anything. They just look fancy.
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 15, 2006 03:27 PM
Here's how I see it:
Brock added 12% of fuel at 6750rpm's at 0 throttle position. The stock ECU provides zero fuel at that position. So how much fuel did he actually add? ZERO
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
I am humble enough to admit my mistake here if I am wrong.
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lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted November 15, 2006 04:26 PM
quote:
ZXLNT,
The ECU is supplying zero fuel there.
How do you know that?
You're not looking at the ECU!
If we could do THAT, we wouldn't need a PC, now WOULD WE? 
____________
You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 15, 2006 05:15 PM
Edited By: tonytooth on 15 Nov 2006 17:23
quote:
quote:
ZXLNT,
The ECU is supplying zero fuel there.
How do you know that?
You're not looking at the ECU!
If we could do THAT, we wouldn't need a PC, now WOULD WE?
lucky14,
Do you think I would be arguing this if I didn't already have that info?
The first thing that was done before the bike was tuned was to determine this. There is no sense in filling this entire map with numbers when the stock ECU doesn't even provide fuel in many of those areas. This area I am speaking of is one of them. I know this because we determined this durring the mapping.
Look at any map out there (dynojet.com) and you'll see the difference to this map.
Here's one you can figure out on your own  , no need to take my word. Take throttle position 100 at 11500rpm, there is a 3% fuel increase. You can see for yourself from the dyno sheet that these bikes aren't producing power at this high of an rpm so why the 3% increase? More unexplained phantom numbers that you will not find on other maps. Why here?
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 15, 2006 05:20 PM
Edited By: tonytooth on 15 Nov 2006 17:21
All I am saying is there is a lot of extra numbers on this map that just appear to be phantom numbers with no purpose.
You do not find these numbers on any other maps either so why are they here? I am only asking for an explanation not an argument.
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted November 16, 2006 07:15 AM
Edited By: Brock on 16 Nov 2006 07:19
tonytooth,
If a person gives away or shares my maps....I consider this to be STEALING.
Also, in addition to our map support program, this same THIEF is also receiving a DISCOUNT from my company on future purchases?!
This burns me up. 
As far as your questions about the particular areas of a map.....why don't you call the company where you purchased your pipe and ask them?
Brock
Brock's Performance
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rodanst6
Novice Class
Posts: 49
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posted November 16, 2006 07:45 AM
Tony,
I could be wrong but, if you look at the table it is a relation between two changing variables, one being the position of the throttle and the other being the rpm of the engine. As you look at any one cell in the table when those two events occur at the same time the power commander adjusts the amount of fuel that the engine recieves (based on ECU output) by a percentage up/down to the data point in the table from the power commander. If there is a ZERO there is no change to the ECU supplied amount of fuel.
So look at the table and tell me there is never a time that your engine is at 2250 rpm's with zero throttle (or any other combination on the table). Each data point in that table can occur at some point every time we ride the motorcycle. Say you accelerate from a light to redline in first gear, when you shift you may be at 10,500 with how much throttle, 0% because you are shifting, so there is an entry for that condition.
It is an internal combustion engine, it needs fuel all the time when it is on....IF THERE IS NO FUEL, HOW IS IT STILL RUNNING????
If I'm wrong this was one long rant, I apologize in advance!
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 16, 2006 07:49 AM
Edited By: tonytooth on 16 Nov 2006 07:52
Brock,
I'm questioning your map, not theres.
Your maps obviously perform well but they seem to be the only ones I have found that have these differences so I was curious why?
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted November 16, 2006 08:07 AM
quote:
Brock,
I'm questioning your map, not theres.
Your maps obviously perform well but they seem to be the only ones I have found that have these differences so I was curious why?
Lemme get this straight... you're questioning Brock's accuracy on a stolen map? And you expect Brock to answer you by giving you what just might be trade secrets that makes his maps valuable in the first place?
Wow... you seem to have an unreasonable expectation of Brock to think that he's going to give you any additional info at all. 
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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tonytooth
Zone Head
Posts: 647
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posted November 16, 2006 08:45 AM
Edited By: tonytooth on 16 Nov 2006 08:46
Gimme a break. This is obviously a Brock blowfest and not a discussion. Let's just call it www.brockland.com. God forbid someone questions the "GOD" (this explains why I am an athiest). I am here to discuss and ask lots of questions. I don't think this is an unfair question. Getting mad over map sharing is just ridiculous. THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN A CUSTOM MAP!
You all can carry on. No need for me discuss more, I'm getting nowhere.
Tiforce, Muzzy, Yosh, Tsukigi, Orient Express all suck. Brock's pipes are the best. There now I feel like I fit in around here.
FWIW Brock, I honestly do not even remember who gave me this map. It was months ago. I don't even use it, I have a custom map.
-Out
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Stalwart
Needs a job
Posts: 3360
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posted November 16, 2006 10:32 AM
quote:
It is an internal combustion engine, it needs fuel all the time when it is on....IF THERE IS NO FUEL, HOW IS IT STILL RUNNING????
Yes and no. At a lower rpm and 0% throttle there needs to be some fuel but during deceleration above a Kawasaki determined RPM, no fuel is needed. This is NOT true of neutral as the engine decelerates too quickly. So Tony is correct, a change of the stock map when there is no fuel being scheduled by the ECU would have no difference. That being said, I'm sure the ECU interpolates between values and the % difference at even a point where no fuel is being scheduled, by the ECU, MAY make a difference at some other nearby point where fuel IS being scheduled. I'm sure Brock has a method to his madness. 
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Stuart
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Ridin' the Trump train.
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted November 16, 2006 10:56 AM
How do you know the ECU isnt supplying fuel at that point though. It would be physically difficult to determine without actually looking at the injectors and seeing if they are spraying fuel. Like I said a Zero in a specific position in the map doesn't mean the ECU isn't delivering fuel, it means the power commander isn't adding or subtracting to the amount of fuel the ECU was already delivering..
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brent davis
Zone Head
Posts: 504
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posted November 16, 2006 12:56 PM
Lemme see, Brock buys brand new ZX-14, brock dynos bike/drag races it/tunes the PC for optimum performance, Brock's 14 runs 200 MPH, Brock's bike runs 9.04 and numerous low 9's, Brock dynos and dynos over and over again to get optimum power via his PC tuning and GIVES these maps out to customers that buys his components that match what he uses on his bike. Now how is that being an ass for not telling you why those numbers are there? Lemme just say that I've spent $1500 with Brock for my SMEG and PC III USB and do I think it would be fair for him to give you any information after I've spent money with him for the same thing? Is Brock's maps the best out there for BROCK'S product?.................uhmmm yeah. I'd say so since it is with his pipe and all. As you stated, just throw his map away and use your custom one that you have.
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Black '06 ZX-14
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lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted November 16, 2006 01:38 PM
quote:
FWIW Brock, I honestly do not even remember who gave me this map. It was months ago. I don't even use it, I have a custom map.
From your first post in this thread:
"The map was started from a Brock Gen3 no flies map."
I'm guessing that made the tuner's job easier than starting from zero. 
BTW, you can go to the dynojet site and download a zero map. You will notice that it has a zero in every cell, strangely enough! More strangely, the bike will run just as good as stock with all those zeros. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....................
____________
You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted November 16, 2006 02:52 PM
No way in hell fuel can be added at 0 throttle and 6750 rpm...0 throttle and 1150 rpm yes that idle speed....
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted November 20, 2006 01:39 PM
Edited By: Brock on 20 Nov 2006 13:42
Brock's Performance Exhaust System customers know to go to our ZX-14 Test and Race Information section (in the Private Section of our Forum) for the latest news and information worth knowing about out-running..... EVERYONE ELSE!
Brock
Brock's Performance
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