tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 06:58 AM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 22 Nov 2006 20:03
Custom map done. I promised I would share.
I had it mapped yesterday and these are my results. I have a Tiforce high mount full system with a standard non-conical style canister (straight through non-tapered core). They don't appear impressive compared to many numbers i have seen on the internet but they are realistic Dynojet US numbers. The map was started from a Brock Gen3 no flies map. We had some higher peak numbers with it leaner up top but in the end we went with it not as lean so naturally is decreased my peak dyno horsepower. I am hoping with real world ram air the will correct that and intern actually be faster on the track. I can always take away more if need be. I do have some questions about the Gen3 map though. Take a look at the screenshots I provided. I circled the general areas in question with green. Why are there numbers here when there is nothing to correct? The stock ecu is zero so how do you add/remove fuel? If you start with zero fuel and you add a 12%, you still get zero. 12% of zero is still zero. At the bottom of the map shown in my second pic you see the numbers run off the chart well unless your bike has been modifed to run past the stock rev limiter, then you will only produce power until a smidge past 11000rpm's. So those numbers are not a factor either. Are all these numbers just dummy numbers to make the map look more impressive?
Here's the link to download my map if you are interested http://halfhot.com/tony/tiforce_highmount_noflies.djm
** EDIT ** Screen shots removed by request of Brock Davidson **
   
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TeamSpeed
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posted September 14, 2006 07:08 AM
Edited By: TeamSpeed on 14 Sep 2006 08:17
Fuel cells for Low RPM at 0% throttle is idle quality.
Fuel cells for the remaining RPM values at 0% throttle are there for the popping when you completely get off the throttle at higher RPMs.
I put values on my 12R maps, but of course the way I came up with those numbers was with my Halmeter O2 meter and a heated O2 sensor on the collector. I was able to fix every single lean/rich point after many road trips.
Also, the fuel map is not really a fuel map, it is a fuel adjustment map from the factory map. Which means it is not 12% of 0, it is 12% of what the ECU would normally put in at that point, whereas 0 in a cell means that the ECU should use the factory preset value with no adjustment. Now if you are saying that at 0% there is no fuel being supplied by the factory presets, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, as the cylinders are still firing, and supplying fuel is a way to cool them down, and also, there is no electronic idle speed, it is a manual adjustment.
For the top end values outside the stock RPM limit, maybe the map was made for a bike where they bumped up the redline, which you can do with the PC3, I believe.
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 07:32 AM
Edited By: tonytooth on 14 Sep 2006 08:37
From what I gather, the stock ecu does not provide fuel in those areas so by you putting a number, it will do nothing.
If the stock map provides no fuel at 6500rpm's at throttle position 0 then by increasing the supply by 12% to it still gives you no fuel. The bikes map does not provide fuel there so you can't correct something that is not there.
If the stock map doesn't provide fuel in a particular spot then I don't believe you can add fuel with a pc. The pc only adds or removes a % of what is already there. That's how I understand it but I am no expert.
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 07:39 AM
By the way, my bike still popped like it always did even with the Gen3 map in there.
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 08:21 AM
We were trying to remove popping on decel. He was adding lots of fuel (30-40%) in that range with no response. He initially thought it was a bad pc so he contacted Power Commander and they told him that it is the bike not the pc. The stock map does not offer fuel in this range so a pc will not correct it.
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Nukedog
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posted September 14, 2006 08:31 AM
If the stock map provides "no fuel" at a certain RPM then the motor would die...
Get you an O2 setup and make your own maps - all adjustments do make a difference...
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 08:37 AM
quote:
If the stock map provides "no fuel" at a certain RPM then the motor would die...
Not so sure if that is true.
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Stalwart
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posted September 14, 2006 08:39 AM
quote:
If the stock map provides "no fuel" at a certain RPM then the motor would die...
Nope, NOT during deceleration. No fuel CAN BE scheduled at "0" throttle at above idle rpm, during deceleration, with no bad consequences. Fuel must be added as the engine approaches idle rpm . . .
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Stuart
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 09:19 AM
How do you explain the map numbers at the highest rpm's? These bikes do not produce power much past 11k so why have a map number adjustment there?
There just appears to be way too many numbers in this map that have no value. It looks pretty though 
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Stalwart
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posted September 14, 2006 09:25 AM
As I recall, the PC for the 14 is the same for the 10R (?) so you could simply "zero" out the numbers above the rev limiter. The 10 supposedly has a higher redline so data would still be there. Do you need to zero the data above fuel cutoff rev limit? No, but the ECU will never see those numbers anyway, even if they are part of the PC map.
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CrotchRocket
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posted September 14, 2006 10:03 AM
Tony dont worry about it...
If your sure the bike was dyno'd with the exhaust sensor in place and mapped for optimum fuel/air mixture, then dont worry about the numbers!!!..You'll just drive yourself crazy over what the numbers look like from box to box, position to position...
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
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Stalwart
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posted September 14, 2006 10:10 AM
quote:
Tony dont worry about it...
Now that's the best advise! 
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 11:10 AM
Edited By: tonytooth on 14 Sep 2006 12:10
You guys are missing the point... that is not my map. You can download mine and view it to see the difference. That is the Brock Gen3 no flies map that I got from someone. I am not worried about my map but I am currious why that map has those map points. Also, that would not be a zx10 map because it's a no flies map and there is no way that those two bikes would share map adjustments. Im sure the zx14 would need much more fuel added down load to compensate. Just goes to show you that you should never count on a downloaded map. Always get a custom map.
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Stalwart
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posted September 14, 2006 11:12 AM
Edited By: Stalwart on 14 Sep 2006 12:13
Nevermind, you won't listen anyway.
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Stuart
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TeamSpeed
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posted September 14, 2006 11:59 AM
Edited By: TeamSpeed on 14 Sep 2006 13:03
quote:
You guys are missing the point... that is not my map. You can download mine and view it to see the difference. That is the Brock Gen3 no flies map that I got from someone. I am not worried about my map but I am currious why that map has those map points. Also, that would not be a zx10 map because it's a no flies map and there is no way that those two bikes would share map adjustments. Im sure the zx14 would need much more fuel added down load to compensate. Just goes to show you that you should never count on a downloaded map. Always get a custom map.
I think you are missing a little history here. Brock initially started with ZX14 PC3s that were for the ZX10R, by grounding out some wire or some other mod. The maps you see from Brock could very well have been maps they started with from a 10R, but only changed those pertinent cells in the range for the 14. He might have also just bumped up his redline value, and mapped for those higher cells as well. It is hard to tell. The very first PC3s for the ZX14s were the ones for the 10Rs, and were sold with a disclaimor as such. Like others stated, if you are happy with how it runs, just enjoy the map you have.
It took me a couple of months to build my own map by using a Halmeter w/heated O2 on my 12R. I monitored every rich and lean point on the meter with what percentage throttle I had and made some mental notes to change fuel at those locations. It was very tedious, but fun and educational. You saved yourself alot of time by just having one made for you. Enjoy it.
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 12:25 PM
Edited By: tonytooth on 14 Sep 2006 13:26
Yes you are correct I forgot about him using those zx10 pc's. You have a good point. I'm not even 100% sure that map was done by Brock. I just claimed that it was a map for his pipe. Who knows, someone else could have made this map. I don't know.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted September 14, 2006 01:29 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 14 Sep 2006 14:49
Tony...see my post under your decel popping thread to understand why you are seeing those numbers where DJ claims there is no fuel
Click here to see the real answer
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tonytooth
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posted September 14, 2006 02:28 PM
When do you consider the bike to be "broke in"? I only have 1k miles and I broke it in somewhat easy. Lee (smokinzx14) rode my bike the other night and mentioned the motor seemed tighter than his. Im thinking once I have 3k miles and synthetic oil, that may be good for more ponies.
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fastlif
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posted September 14, 2006 03:41 PM
A zero on the map does not mean 0 fuel is flowing, it means there is 0 deveation from the factory map.
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CrotchRocket
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posted September 14, 2006 04:34 PM
quote:
You guys are missing the point... that is not my map. You can download mine and view it to see the difference. That is the Brock Gen3 no flies map that I got from someone. I am not worried about my map but I am currious why that map has those map points. Also, that would not be a zx10 map because it's a no flies map and there is no way that those two bikes would share map adjustments. Im sure the zx14 would need much more fuel added down load to compensate. Just goes to show you that you should never count on a downloaded map. Always get a custom map.
OK, glad we straightend all that out
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
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ninja14
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posted November 13, 2006 12:51 PM
What is popping?................it's burning fuel............so there is fuel........
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
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posted November 13, 2006 04:19 PM
Dead horse, but it's a rich condition that some say can be eliminated with timing or an 006 TRE (locks the timing into the "N" position). Easy fix without the TRE too...in fact, Brock even mentioned to me that the popping can be eliminated with an ignition module...
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CrotchRocket
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posted November 13, 2006 06:45 PM
Tony, you have a PM...
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
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BlackMagic14
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posted November 13, 2006 08:28 PM
I have had my bike dynod 5 times by five different people on five different dyno's and everyone of them said BROCKS supplied map WAS PERFECT!!!!!!!
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stevewfl
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posted November 13, 2006 08:51 PM
quote:
I have had my bike dynod 5 times by five different people on five different dyno's and everyone of them said BROCKS supplied map WAS PERFECT!!!!!!!
It took 5 times to finally believe in Brock's map huh!?
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
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