fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted August 27, 2006 09:06 AM
Why more TRE talk?
I'm confused. Brock and I spent an unbelievable amount of dontated time to test the TRE vs fly removal on the 14. The tests and the results have been live on the site for months now. These tests were performed to help the community understand what was happening with the 14 and why, yet when I tune in to ninjazx14.com I see more and more discussion where people state they dont understand what is going on with the flies, why etc etc. Further I see people waiting for members to test the bike etc.
Why is this?
?even more confused?
Havent we talked, disected and tested this subject to death?
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
   
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countersteer
Needs a job
Didn't read the owners manual
Posts: 2207
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posted August 27, 2006 09:44 AM
because there are a lot of noobs with zx-14s...
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted August 27, 2006 09:52 AM
I don't know. I just know that I spent less than $5 for a TRE-like resistor. I am happy with this version of a TRE since it took 5 minutes to install and cost less than $5. I don't understand why folks are still spending $70 for something that costs $2.
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htosado
Zone Head
Posts: 949
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posted August 27, 2006 10:12 AM
Fly removal is free!!!
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted August 27, 2006 10:43 AM
I won't remove flies until I have all my goodies, then they will be removed. This is a cheap and fast alternative, and quickly reverted back.
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted August 27, 2006 11:43 AM
I guess because the guys from zx14.com have not been here to see the indepth story and results from the testing done!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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raptor14
Expert Class
Posts: 264
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posted August 27, 2006 11:52 AM
Why more TRE talk?
1. It's controversial and elicits emotions from the TRE vs. FLIES OUT affectionados. FBA raised the controversy to new heights with his "attacks" on Ivan and the TRE. Greg over at ZX14.net also helped raise the controversy when he supported the TRE thinking he could get Ivan to support his site and then, when he didn't, changed his mind and called the TRE crap. Greg's magic $30 TRE has never materialized as far as I know. Hummm? I know Ivan and he's worked on a number of my bikes. The guy isn't the devil that some members on this site have made him out to be and members of other boards are finding out that he's a pretty knowledgable tuner. Ivan has his quirks, just like the rest of us. I won't condemn or defend him. I'll just say he's an interesting character and leave it at that.
2. Brock says you need to remap with the TRE due to poor f/a, Ivan (and a few others) say you don't. People are confused. Some are running the TRE with the stock exhaust while others are running the TRE with an aftermarket exhaust. Brock's test was conducted with his aftermarket exhaust. The issue of needing to remap is not settled yet. Do you need to remap if you retain the stock exhaust?
3. The TRE report from you and Brock states that the FLIES OUT is for race use only (last time I read it anyway and by the way, I appreciate the report greatly!). Then Brock apparently changed his mind, stating that the issues he had with the FLIES OUT on the street was due to use of race gas. Pump gas eliminated the problems. Some people have only read the oridinal report. Has the report been updated?
4. Regarding item 3, there are still conflicting reports from various sources on the "driveability" aspects of removing the flies. Some report issues, others claim there are none. Perhaps this is due to different maps. Whatever the reason, pulling the flies is a bigger deal than installing a TRE for those who are not comfortable experimenting with their new $11,000 motorcycle. Yep, the TRE is an experiment, but it is less of an experiment for the non -wrench turning than the FLIES OUT.
5. As in nearly everything, one report rarely settles the issue. The conclusions of that report need to be independently verified by other reports.
6. To semi-settle the argument of TRE vs. FLIES you: (1) need to conduct additional tests of the two options with a stock exhaust and a more street oriented aftermarket exhaust (such as the Gen 3 StreetSmart) to confirm that the results and the f/a issues are the same as the test with the SMEG (2) most likely run the tests using a data logger rather than a dyno to record actual street use - although I personally believe the dyno test is good enough (3) get the supposedly lean condition at low rpm with the TRE independently confirmed by another tuner, (4) run all tests on pump gas as most of us examining this issue are not drag racers.
Fish and Brock, don't take me wrong. I greatly appreciate the test you did. I have Brock's Gen 3 StreetSmart installed and I like it. Brock's customer service is top notch. I'm a fan. But neither of you have provided sufficient data to settle the issue. I would suspect that Brock is not interested in running the tests with a stock exhaust and who can blame him. Certainly not me. But such a test has to be run to help settle the issue.
OK, that's my 2 cents. I got 5 cents but I'm sure you're bored of reading my comments if you've gotten this far. So I'll let it go.
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted August 27, 2006 11:55 AM
quote:
I'm confused. Brock and I spent an unbelievable amount of dontated time to test the TRE vs fly removal on the 14. The tests and the results have been live on the site for months now. These tests were performed to help the community understand what was happening with the 14 and why, yet when I tune in to ninjazx14.com I see more and more discussion where people state they dont understand what is going on with the flies, why etc etc. Further I see people waiting for members to test the bike etc.
Why is this?
?even more confused?
Havent we talked, disected and tested this subject to death?
Because *YOU* pinned the topic back at the top of the forum. What did you expect? DUH
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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FasterThanStink
Pro
Posts: 1218
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posted August 27, 2006 12:07 PM
What's a TRE? :P
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Speed has never killed anyone,
suddenly becoming stationary...
That's what gets you.
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raptor14
Expert Class
Posts: 264
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posted August 27, 2006 12:16 PM
Fish, one other comment. It HAS been verified by several dyno tuners that FLIES OUT requires a remap, whether one is running the stock or aftermarket exhaust. Thus, this option is not free, as some of its adherents claim. One MUST buy a Power Commander and get a map from somewhere. Finding maps for FLIES OUT with stock and many aftermarket exhausts is difficult at best (although I have seem some around). Cost of this option is approaches $300 assuming you don't dyno your bike.
IF, and again is say IF, the claim that you don't have to remap with a TRE if you you keep the stock exhaust or use slip-ons, is true, then the cost of this option is $70, a savings of around $230 relative to FLIES OUT. Thus, there are a lot of TRE lovers out there as it is a cheaper option.
Does the TRE provide the same low end benefit as FLIES OUT. Brock's report says no, but his exhaust is not stock nor is it his street oriented system. Answer is unknown. I have run the TRE and the FLIES OUT. I have Brock's Gen 3 StreetSmart and his maps. No dyno, just psuedo calibrated butt-cheeks. With Brock's exhaust and maps my opinion is that FLIES OUT is incrementally better than the TRE. But again, my bike is modified. Who knows the answer for a stock exhaust.
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted August 27, 2006 05:04 PM
the ongoing TRE saga
10-4 Raptor I couldn't agree more. I am running a TRE with stock exhaust and a power commander from Brock with Brocks base map he used in part 1 with stock exhaust. It is a good map but was not optimized for the TRE. I ran the TRE before installing the power commander from Brock and the throttle response in the 2000 to 4500 RPM range was better (my observation riding the bike not based on dyno data) without the mapped Power Commander in this RPM range. I removed all mapping below 4000 RPM's and the bike runs and responds better in this range again. I feel confident it could be better if I have a map done for the TRE and stock exhausts. Brock quite naturally has no financial interest in creating mapping for stock exhausts and a product he does not make. I will most certainly use Brocks map for the gen 3 and TRE when I install the exhaust this winter. You're observation that most of us are not drag racers and the TRE provides a good result for guys with stock exhausts that don't want to install a $300 Power Commander is correct based on my initial experience. I personally have nothing against removing the flys but was satisfied with the results I got installing the TRE. I appreciate the research that Brock did at Fishes request but I feel there are still open questions concerning the TRE.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted August 27, 2006 05:05 PM
 Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 27 Aug 2006 18:11
quote:
I'm confused. Brock and I spent an unbelievable amount of dontated time to test the TRE vs fly removal on the 14. The tests and the results have been live on the site for months now. These tests were performed to help the community understand what was happening with the 14 and why, yet when I tune in to ninjazx14.com I see more and more discussion where people state they dont understand what is going on with the flies, why etc etc. Further I see people waiting for members to test the bike etc.
Why is this?
?even more confused?
Havent we talked, disected and tested this subject to death?
It's really all coming from one or two guys there who are being really anal about the issues and don't believe Brock's findings, because they spoke to Ivan who impressed them and told them that the 14 doesn't run lean with the TRE. Fuck....it seems that the only subject on that site is about his freaking TRE (.001 cent resistor). I've now also heard there that TeamSpeed's resistor solution doesn't work as well as the TRE? Personally, me thinks they have nothing better to do then debate the TRE/Flies/resistor bullshit.
Now, if the TRE doesn't actually require low end remapping, then it can't give you the same low end gains that the flies out solution will...
Oh and Fish, you should change the review to reflect Brock's latest view of street riding with the flies out, since he has reversed his opnion after riding his bike with the flies out. That might also clear up some confusion...
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FYYFF!!!
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted August 27, 2006 05:33 PM
Edited By: TeamSpeed on 27 Aug 2006 18:35
quote:
quote:
I'm confused. Brock and I spent an unbelievable amount of dontated time to test the TRE vs fly removal on the 14. The tests and the results have been live on the site for months now. These tests were performed to help the community understand what was happening with the 14 and why, yet when I tune in to ninjazx14.com I see more and more discussion where people state they dont understand what is going on with the flies, why etc etc. Further I see people waiting for members to test the bike etc.
Why is this?
?even more confused?
Havent we talked, disected and tested this subject to death?
It's really all coming from one or two guys there who are being really anal about the issues and don't believe Brock's findings, because they spoke to Ivan who impressed them and told them that the 14 doesn't run lean with the TRE. Fuck....it seems that the only subject on that site is about his freaking TRE (.001 cent resistor). I've now also heard there that TeamSpeed's resistor solution doesn't work as well as the TRE? Personally, me thinks they have nothing better to do then debate the TRE/Flies/resistor bullshit.
Now, if the TRE doesn't actually require low end remapping, then it can't give you the same low end gains that the flies out solution will...
Oh and Fish, you should change the review to reflect Brock's latest view of street riding with the flies out, since he has reversed his opnion after riding his bike with the flies out. That might also clear up some confusion...
It does works as well as the TRE, it does not work as abruptly and powerful as the no-flies. I really love the coldstart, but this simple mod is worth alot more torque about 2800 up, which I do like as well, it is more smooth than the no-flies. However, like I stated, the flies are gone once I get the exhaust and the PC3. The cheapest place I have found thus far is a place on Ebay for 259 shipped. Probably will get Area P slipons though this site.
What kills me more is that people now know that Ivan's TRE for the ZX14 is nothing more than a 9K resistor on the black/yellow, and a 270 ohm resistor on the green/red wires. I made one in about 2 minutes, and within 5 minutes had it installed with a spade connector to connect to the green/red wire. Why would anyone spend $70 for a 20 cent resistor and a 10 cent spade connector, wired to the sprocket cover bolt for the ground? This is even a bigger mystery.
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lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted August 27, 2006 05:50 PM
Let me make this clear - I have tremendous (no pun intended) respect for Brock's hard work and especially that he made all this information public. However,........................
1. It doesn't answer the question of what happens with adding only a TRE on a STOCK 14.
2. I have a lot of trouble believing the following "fact": "Believe it or not, without the TRE, the secondary throttle plates DON'T EVEN MOVE until around somewhere around 7000 rpm! (It is rather hard to watch all of these items at once, but these numbers are pretty close.) This amazed me because the engine is still able to make well over 100 Hp with what appears to be a plugged inlet?!"
3. The article ends with "There you have it. After months of torturing Ivan, each other, and now Brock , the readership has a clear answer: there is no clear answer." HUH?? Doesn't that still leave the arguments wide open?
Again, no haters please, as no disrespect is meant to anyone.
____________
You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted August 27, 2006 06:13 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm confused. Brock and I spent an unbelievable amount of dontated time to test the TRE vs fly removal on the 14. The tests and the results have been live on the site for months now. These tests were performed to help the community understand what was happening with the 14 and why, yet when I tune in to ninjazx14.com I see more and more discussion where people state they dont understand what is going on with the flies, why etc etc. Further I see people waiting for members to test the bike etc.
Why is this?
?even more confused?
Havent we talked, disected and tested this subject to death?
It's really all coming from one or two guys there who are being really anal about the issues and don't believe Brock's findings, because they spoke to Ivan who impressed them and told them that the 14 doesn't run lean with the TRE. Fuck....it seems that the only subject on that site is about his freaking TRE (.001 cent resistor). I've now also heard there that TeamSpeed's resistor solution doesn't work as well as the TRE? Personally, me thinks they have nothing better to do then debate the TRE/Flies/resistor bullshit.
Now, if the TRE doesn't actually require low end remapping, then it can't give you the same low end gains that the flies out solution will...
Oh and Fish, you should change the review to reflect Brock's latest view of street riding with the flies out, since he has reversed his opnion after riding his bike with the flies out. That might also clear up some confusion...
It does works as well as the TRE, it does not work as abruptly and powerful as the no-flies. I really love the coldstart, but this simple mod is worth alot more torque about 2800 up, which I do like as well, it is more smooth than the no-flies. However, like I stated, the flies are gone once I get the exhaust and the PC3. The cheapest place I have found thus far is a place on Ebay for 259 shipped. Probably will get Area P slipons though this site.
What kills me more is that people now know that Ivan's TRE for the ZX14 is nothing more than a 9K resistor on the black/yellow, and a 270 ohm resistor on the green/red wires. I made one in about 2 minutes, and within 5 minutes had it installed with a spade connector to connect to the green/red wire. Why would anyone spend $70 for a 20 cent resistor and a 10 cent spade connector, wired to the sprocket cover bolt for the ground? This is even a bigger mystery.
Read what "they" are saying about your "TRE" at ZX14NINJA...I'm with you...don't understand where they get their info...
So...I have a question for you TS...running the 6th gear map all the time...do you think the timing changes over the lower gear maps? I find at WOT at 5K and down with flies out and mapped, there is a long lag till it really hits..only at WOT, not part throttle. Was wondering if it was timing related...
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FYYFF!!!
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted August 27, 2006 06:42 PM
It is really just Cruz reading more into one person's take on the homemade TRE. And I don't think he want to believe he spent $70 for the TRE if it really is just a resistor (which it is). I don't know about the timing, but if they have a fuel map for % throttle/RPM, there certainly could be a different map for gear/timing. I personally don't care if the TRE changes the timing or not, the torque/hp gains of opening early or removing the flies is enough. I do notice the bike runs a bit hotter with the TRE in, but I don't notice any lean lag.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted August 27, 2006 06:46 PM
Brock has not yet contacted me with any changes to his review, thus his opinions and findings stand as printed. I;ve searched high and low on the site and have yet to see anywhere that Brock has recommended fly removal over TRE.
Also, as noted in the conclusion of the review, TRE or Fly, either requires a powercommander and remap.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted August 27, 2006 06:46 PM
Hmmmm....I wonder what the lag I am seeing is all about...it's only in the higher gears.
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FYYFF!!!
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted August 27, 2006 06:55 PM
What you "notice" and what the dyno sees are apparently teo very different things.
Maybe Kruz sells TREs?
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted August 28, 2006 02:28 AM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 28 Aug 2006 04:06
That's what Brock indicated too...he now rides it in the street that way, no flies...and loves it. Dyno's don't and can't tell you how the bike will behave in the street, not to any great degree anyway...they may, and I repeat, may give you some very rough idea of driveability, but nothing more than that.
Regarding what he NOW says about the removal of the flies: Here's what he said Fish...
quote:
posted July 23, 2006 09:53 PM Edited By: Brock on 23 Jul 2006 19:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As one of the "experts" I must now concur with fastestbusa around.
I rode about 60 miles today with my Smeg-TRACK-NOSEC_MAP.
This is the exact map Sonny used to run 9.15 with no air cleaner and MR9 fuel.
I will be racing the bike at the track Tuesday so I left the map in and the flies out.
I installed my air cleaner and 89 octane pump gas before I left today. Of course the bike is down about 10 HP average....but it was a COMPLETE JOY to ride and STILL FAST AS HELL! The throttle response and drivability was PERFECT. The only ill affect I have noticed is an occasional pop form the exhaust during shifts. I have my pair blocked so I'm sure it is a simple rich (?) condition loading a bit of fuel in the pipe after blipping the gas to shift. For now, I will have to live with it. My data logger will be on the bike Tuesday so I will know more about the A/F ratio with the bike moving. Of course I will forward any cure I find to my customers via the private section of our forum.
The throttle response is MUCH smoother than with the MR9 and filter out. Once I re-trained myself to modulate the throttle, it was every bit as smooth as any Busa I have ever mapped.
The bike makes so much torque that the lower rev/wide open throttle position stalls that plagued me on the dyno DID NOT OCCUR on the street. You would have to be a horrible rider to even get in a position to bog the bike to the point of shut off on the street.
I officially stand corrected on my no fly's stance and must now of course admit to being a VERY happy member of the "need to compensate" club!
Brock
Brock's Performance
Here's the link to that thread...
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=25268
If you want to be anal about it, then yes you would be correct in that he doesn't come right out and say "Remove the flies and don't bother with the TRE in the street, because the fly removal is smoother and delivers more power", but I think we all got the point here, eh? Anyone reading his post would agree that he completly reversed his thinking, because he rode it and decided that the Dyno didn't tell the whole or true story.
Guess you missed this post....but now you have the whole uncensored story.
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FYYFF!!!
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ZX-XIV
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted August 28, 2006 08:48 AM
Just my .02 worth, But if you have a stock bike with flies in and are cruising at 3000/3500rpm's in 6th gear is the bike lean from factory. If the resistor is added to trick ECU into thinking it's in 6th gear, what is differance. In lower gears we go through lean spot in a hurry.
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted August 28, 2006 09:38 AM
Fish, I know this is not your full time job, but have you tried to contact Brock about his take on the flies out. I talked with him again this morning and he siad he had to eat his words on fly removal. so actually for the sake of new members who don't read old post , the artical should be updated.
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MATTZ14
Expert Class
Posts: 282
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posted August 28, 2006 12:28 PM
Hey Fish, try the search function. LOL
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted August 28, 2006 12:59 PM
quote:
Fish, I know this is not your full time job, but have you tried to contact Brock about his take on the flies out.
...uh.. what do you think Bently?
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted August 28, 2006 01:01 PM
I think No! I think Yes, ah shit I don't know what I think
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