posted July 23, 2006 03:35 AM
Rode 320 mile yesterday with new setup... So, after installing the Brock Gen 3 with PC3 and removing the flies...I did a 320 mile run yesterday...250 in the rain...
Bike pulls like a beast now all the way from 2500RPM up...but I can't use 1st gear in the rain. I spun the back tire (Diablo Strada) in most of the gears on the roads yesterday...LOL. It really doesn't take much now, especially if you're in the correct gears most of the time. This is no different than my Busa's were...instant power delivery at all throttle positions and engine speeds. White painted lines on the road in the rain...well, that's a big no-no, even more so now with the flies removed. The 70-80 miles that we did in the dry really made this puppy shine big...
Contrary to what most "experts" in the know are saying, the bike is actually smoother with the flies out, because it makes power from the low side up, which means more linear power delivery, which also means smoother power delivery. There are no spikes in the mid-range anymore now. The bike runs as the engine was designed to. I guess the major issue with having them in, is that there's no throttle response under 6k. Power is one thing, but having no throttle response...that absolutely has to be addressed. This BS about taming the bike for the street, what a crock of shit...ultimately I believe it will do more harm than good. Having a bike of this weight and size and not having any power down where it spends most of it's time, is just downright dangerous, particularly when most of the rider's who own the bike tend to be more aggressive than most. You don't see Goldwings or other sport tourer's with this nonsensical "tamed" throttle response...IMO, it was a dumb move on KAW's part, despite what the rags say.
A note on the Diablo Strada's...Super Sport tires, they aren't. They handle well for what they are and are a good compromise if you want to spend 1/2 of what you would normally spend each season on tires. They have decent traction on dry pavement, but I'm hesitant to push them hard in the corners, because I've had them spin a few times more than I care to mention. They are absolutely useless and downright dangerous in the rain; they slide around corners with no power to the wheels. I really don't do much rain throughout the season, so that doesn't really bother me too much, but I wouldn't recommend them for these big heavy bikes. I was using the Michelin Pilot Sports for years prior to this tire and I felt much more at home with them, dry or wet; I had less issue with them in wet too. The 190/15/50 Diablo is 3/4" of an inch narrower than a super sport 190/17/50, so it looks kind of stupid under that big rear ass on the 14. I won't buy them again. By the way, I had a set of MEZ6's on my FJR a few years ago (I believe it was the MEZ6). These Pirelli Diablo's are the same tire; there's no difference at all and I didn't like the MEZ's either.
To recap, this bike needs the flies removed. It doesn't need the Diablo Strada's.
____________
FYYFF!!!
posted July 23, 2006 04:31 AM
You just answered my biggest question. Thanks, my pc3 will be here tommorrow. Those flies are gone and ill sell or return the tre.
posted July 23, 2006 05:50 AM
I believe I'm going flies out ASAP, as well. I've gotten to the point that I'm not sure what I'm waiting for "them" to find out about flies-in improvement. If people aren't experiencing the driveability issues related to earlier, I'm all for more juice AND my gear indicator. I believe the time has come...
posted July 23, 2006 06:54 AM
Thanks for the report on the Stradas. I have the MEZ6 on my FZ1 and like them for that application. Thought about them for the 14 but was feeling uncomfortable based on intuition rather than comments from others. I'm thinking about the ME3's right now.
posted July 23, 2006 07:45 AM
Thaks FBA.... Bummer about the Stradas thou I just ordered a set they will be here Monday.
____________
The banks are failing..
The banks are failing...
Invest in Ammo
posted July 23, 2006 07:49 AM
Edited By: zx1kr on 23 Jul 2006 08:53
quote:Fastestbusa do you have any troubles with the idle jumping around or bike wanting to die right off the hit of throttle?
That is total B.S. , never had this issue. That was a rumor started by someone that got beat to the punch on mapping the "no Flies" & tried to scare people off of going w/ the "no flies"
I wouldn't put the flies back in for any reason other than bringing the bike into a Kawi Dealer for a warranty repair!
Good stuff FBA! Go with the Pilot Powers, mine should be on the 14 next week.
____________
posted July 23, 2006 09:05 AM
thanks FBA, major question answered.
I dropped off my bike at dealership yesterday as all my left side parts are in,,,
PCIII and Brock Pipe are to be arriving there on Monday.
I am going to have them install (time is my most valuable thing) and will get them to pull my flies at the same time...
Looking forwards to picking up the "New" bike
____________
Be a predator, not prey.
2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
posted July 23, 2006 10:11 AM
Zx1kr, can you explain yourself a little better? cause I was just told when I orderd my Smeg that Brock still does not recommend running with the flies out if you ride on the street. But by what you guys are saying I might request the no flies map from brock and remove mine. Oh and I second the pilot powers as a good choice of tires will be putting my rear on this week sometime. Stock is holding in there pretty good have 3100 miles looks like it will go 3500.
posted July 23, 2006 01:29 PM
I dont know for sure but Brock might be covering his self. Some of the things he says maybe taken to another level if something were to happen. People are cut throat these days and always look to blame someone else if possible. Not everyone just some people.
posted July 23, 2006 01:32 PM
Edited By: 3Boysand3Bikes on 23 Jul 2006 14:35
Bently
Expert Class
Posts: 177
posted July 23, 2006 11:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zx1kr, can you explain yourself a little better? cause I was just told when I orderd my Smeg that Brock still does not recommend running with the flies out if you ride on the street. But by what you guys are saying I might request the no flies map from brock and remove mine.
Bently... I do not have the Brock Smeg system... so I can't really address that... but his reasoning about leaving the flies and getting the TRE was that the bike was undriveable down low with the flies removed (due to several reasons... running lean and too much power... very jerky). I have nothing but respect for Brock and what he has done for 'us' and the zx-14. I do have to at least give my experience out so that everyone can get a broad input...
I do not drag race anymore... I ride around mostly with 1 or 2 bikes, or by myself, (wife on back too)... I HATED the way the bike was set up. There was not one thing positive for ME in having the bike 'restricted'. When I pulled the flies... I noticed that the bike is super smooth. My 2001 zx-12 was hard to ride through town with my wife because it was so jerky. The 14 is great! My wife told me after I did the flies that it was a lot faster, and that it seemed to be as smooth. I then aked her if the 14 or the 12 jerked more... and she said that the Hayabusa and the 12 weren't as smooth as the 14. So depending upon what you want to do with the bike, that should be your decision with the flies. I cannot say that Brock is wrong, because that is his take on it... however, once you try it you will see that it is just so much better to ride wothout flies. I have only heard of Brock having ridden the bike with the flies out and not liking how it rode. (Again... I am not against Brock... He is great at what he does... I just don't agree with his take on it that is all.) Who else has pulled the flies and not liked it? You can always put them back if you want. If I were strickly drag racing my bike, I would do EXACTLY as Brock says because he seems to be great at it. I am not drag racing though... I am not giving it full throttle all of the time. I am pulling out from stop lights... I am passing on roads... pulling out of corners... real life stuff.... that needs some low end power. The TRE didn't interest me due to the gear indicator, shift light and nuetral lights not working. Not a big deal... just would drive me nuts... (er) My take...
quote:Thaks FBA.... Bummer about the Stradas thou I just ordered a set they will be here Monday.
TM...that was my experience with the Strada's...you may feel different. Michelin has a new tire now called the Pilot Power 2CT, which features even softer sides than the Power's. That's going to be my next tire.
quote:Fastestbusa do you have any troubles with the idle jumping around or bike wanting to die right off the hit of throttle?
That is total B.S. , never had this issue. That was a rumor started by someone that got beat to the punch on mapping the "no Flies" & tried to scare people off of going w/ the "no flies"
I wouldn't put the flies back in for any reason other than bringing the bike into a Kawi Dealer for a warranty repair!
Good stuff FBA! Go with the Pilot Powers, mine should be on the 14 next week.
You're right...there are NO driveability issues...bike is much smoother now than before the flies came out, but since the throtte is "hyper-responsive" now, less seasoned riders should pay more attention to the throttle in lower gears (IMO). I have the Michelin Pilot Sport's on my 10r &R1 and had 'em on the Busa. Will stick to them or the new Power's from now on If anyone wants to buy my "free front" and rear Strada's...I had 2 sets...2nd set is for sale...for what I paid...($200.00 CDN for both). ____________
FYYFF!!!
posted July 23, 2006 03:54 PM
Edited By: cls on 23 Jul 2006 16:56
FBA, or whomever,
A couple say there is an advantage to pulling the flies and having the TRE (zxbob, being one.). Others say there is no need for both (Brock being the main component.). I have no intention of questioning Brock's ability. He has been great. However, he may have other considerations behind the scenes...Liability, and whatnot. Is there any consensus on this? Also, what about mapping w/both? I guess pulling the TRE makes sense, unless I'm giving something up...
posted July 23, 2006 05:19 PM
CLS
This has been gone over many times. The TRE tricks the bike into thinking it's in sixth gear all the time so the bike opens the flies. It also takes out your gear indicator(6 always), along with the launch light and one other. So there is no reason to have both.
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
quote:Michelin has a new tire now called the Pilot Power 2CT, which features even softer sides than the Power's. That's going to be my next tire.
Same here, but when I called Michelin a few weeks ago, I was told that the 2CT was only available in Europe, and they didn't have an ETA for us in the states. I hope it won't be long...
posted July 23, 2006 05:53 PM
Edited By: Brock on 23 Jul 2006 19:17
As one of the "experts" I must now concur with fastestbusa around.
I rode about 60 miles today with my Smeg-TRACK-NOSEC_MAP.
This is the exact map Sonny used to run 9.15 with no air cleaner and MR9 fuel.
I will be racing the bike at the track Tuesday so I left the map in and the flies out.
I installed my air cleaner and 89 octane pump gas before I left today. Of course the bike is down about 10 HP average....but it was a COMPLETE JOY to ride and STILL FAST AS HELL! The throttle response and drivability was PERFECT. The only ill affect I have noticed is an occasional pop form the exhaust during shifts. I have my pair blocked so I'm sure it is a simple rich (?) condition loading a bit of fuel in the pipe after blipping the gas to shift. For now, I will have to live with it. My data logger will be on the bike Tuesday so I will know more about the A/F ratio with the bike moving. Of course I will forward any cure I find to my customers via the private section of our forum.
The throttle response is MUCH smoother than with the MR9 and filter out. Once I re-trained myself to modulate the throttle, it was every bit as smooth as any Busa I have ever mapped.
The bike makes so much torque that the lower rev/wide open throttle position stalls that plagued me on the dyno DID NOT OCCUR on the street. You would have to be a horrible rider to even get in a position to bog the bike to the point of shut off on the street.
I officially stand corrected on my no fly's stance and must now of course admit to being a VERY happy member of the "need to compensate" club!
quote:Zx1kr, can you explain yourself a little better? cause I was just told when I orderd my Smeg that Brock still does not recommend running with the flies out if you ride on the street. But by what you guys are saying I might request the no flies map from brock and remove mine. Oh and I second the pilot powers as a good choice of tires will be putting my rear on this week sometime. Stock is holding in there pretty good have 3100 miles looks like it will go 3500.
Well, I have never had any idling issues nor have I had any issues w/ abrupt shut-off right off idle. When the 14 is properly tuned this has never been an issue for me or the several others I know that are running the same set-up. Now, this might be a situation if you pull the flies & install a pipe & DO NOT correct the extreme lean spot w/ proper tuning. That is why I have NEVER experienced this issue. If you have the 14 properly mapped by a competent tuner you will enjoy a rush of power that I have never acquired w/o spending thousands of $$$$ to get.
I would imagine that people that are recommending against it may have to be concerned w/possible legal ramifications.In the event that someone whom didn't know how to ride & did this mod,got hurt. Well, you can figure it out, lawyers & all that good shit.
Anyway, speaking for myself I totally agree w/FBA & enjoy the NO FLIES. Trust me you will.
quote:CLS
This has been gone over many times. The TRE tricks the bike into thinking it's in sixth gear all the time so the bike opens the flies. It also takes out your gear indicator(6 always), along with the launch light and one other. So there is no reason to have both.
Yeh, I'm aware of that. I've been following along intently from the beginning. Some conflicting/evolving feedback left me wondering if the TRE did anything besides open the flies sooner. Some still say it helps, even in addition to removing the secondaries. I'm trying to make sure I have it covered before making my final (Geez, I hope!) mod./adjustment.
Brock, thanks for the clarification. Making it clear: No advantage to running the TRE w/the flies removed? There are those that say it helps...
posted July 23, 2006 06:38 PM
Edited By: zx1kr on 23 Jul 2006 19:38
quote:As one of the "experts" I must now concur with fastestbusa around.
I rode about 60 miles today with my Smeg-TRACK-NOSEC_MAP.
This is the exact map Sonny used to run 9.15 with no air cleaner and MR9 fuel.
I will be racing the bike at the track Tuesday so I left the map in and the flies out.
I installed my air cleaner and 89 octane pump gas before I left today. Of course the bike is down about 10 HP average....but it was a COMPLETE JOY to ride and STILL FAST AS HELL! The throttle response and drivability was PERFECT. The only ill affect I have noticed is an occasional pop form the exhaust during shifts. I have my pair blocked so I'm sure it is a simple rich (?) condition loading a bit of fuel in the pipe after blipping the gas to shift. For now, I will have to live with it. My data logger will be on the bike Tuesday so I will know more about the A/F ratio with the bike moving. Of course I will forward any cure I find to my customers via the private section of our forum.
The throttle response is MUCH smoother than with the MR9 and filter out. Once I re-trained myself to modulate the throttle, it was every bit as smooth as any Busa I have ever mapped.
The bike makes so much torque that the lower rev/wide open throttle position stalls that plagued me on the dyno DID NOT OCCUR on the street. You would have to be a horrible rider to even get in a position to bog the bike to the point of shut off on the street.
I officially stand corrected on my no fly's stance and must now of course admit to being a VERY happy member of the "need to compensate" club!
posted July 23, 2006 07:13 PM
Unlike the Suzuki's I am used to racing: mainly Busa's and GSX-R1000's.
The ZX-14 mapping does not seem to be gear position sensitive....only the opening rate of the secondaries are position sensitive in 5th and 6th gear.
These Suzuki's will loose acceleration in the lower gears when locked in a higher gear.
We actually use TRE's on high horsepower short wheelbase Busa's to make them easier to ride....sometimes killing power is a good way to improve E.T's at the track.
ZX-14's do not seem to have this problem. I will know more after testing with my data logger installed in the coming weeks. But, up to this point there seems to be absolutely no reason the run a TRE if the flies are removed.
Brock
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posted July 23, 2006 03:35 AM
posted July 23, 2006 04:31 AM
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