Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted July 11, 2006 07:37 AM
Was going with a muzzy but not now!
Was going to order a muzzy system today but was told I could only get a map with a purchase of there power commander. so they can keep there pipe as well. will get a brock system now! No reason they can't send you a map on a cd if you purchase there pipe.
  
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted July 11, 2006 07:47 AM
You're not the only one who has experienced this...I have spoken to few other members here who have the same issue and have gone with Brock's product instead. I did that and was very happy -- he sends updated maps all the time. You will be quite pleased with his results...his pipe makes more power too...and he has many maps with and without the flies.
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FYYFF!!!
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Stalwart
Needs a job
Posts: 3360
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posted July 11, 2006 08:01 AM
Not to mention the problem with supply! I ordered the Ti/Ti Muzzy over 2 moths ago and still haven't seen it . . .
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Stuart
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Ridin' the Trump train.
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scificanada
Expert Class
Posts: 411
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posted July 11, 2006 08:02 AM
 Edited By: scificanada on 11 Jul 2006 09:04
NO SHIT!!!!!
As I have bitched about for a few days now, I called Muzzy's last week and spoke to Curt Dorn.
I asked about maps for with and without flys.
I also advised that my muzzy (on order) was supposed to arrive on the 18th of July, how could I get maps.
I was told that the will NOT be creating a NO FLY map as they have determined the bike unrideable, I was further advised that I would only get a Fly in Map with the purchase of THEIR PCIII.
I asked why i was not getting support even though I was buying their Pipe from them...
"Because that's the way Rob wants it"
Well, not acceptable!
I have purchased 3 Muzzy's in the past (including a custom built pipe for my Windle Worm Sidecar) and like their product, but that's it..
I have a Brock coming this week...
Sorry Rob, your guys dropped the ball here, and you know more than anyone, customer service leads to customer loyalty....
And unfortunatly you've lost me and others as well.
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Be a predator, not prey.
2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted July 11, 2006 08:13 AM
rob muzzy are you reading all these comments. looks like you are losing business!!!:d:d
i have muzzy slip on on mine, i am thinking to go brock full system too.
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gaby12
Novice Class
Posts: 60
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posted July 11, 2006 09:08 AM
all for a lousy map...give it a few more months and there will be dozens of maps right here...or there! May not be the perfect map...but they will be floating around for the various applications. No Muzzle for me!
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we want hookers and blow, but will settle for porn and painpills
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted July 11, 2006 09:23 AM
Edited By: speedgene on 11 Jul 2006 10:28
Why get on Rob's case about a map? It's just a generic map! If you look a Brocks maps, he's done with them. It's old data. It's digested, and is now irrelevant to his continuing work. Here you go. Either way, you selected a Pcom, and this performance unit needs to go further than "demanding" an obsolete map. I know at least one guy who wouldn't give up his map for a Brock or Muzzy map. Why?... because he did the dyno work!
I ride a stock bike, so I'm objectively thinking out loud. Step back and think about it for a minute. Rob does not deserve this. It's more your fault for not tuning the bike using the default map the Pcom came with. You bought the Pcom, now pay for the dyno time, and square it away, or stay on your lapper and find it the hard way. The final tune is your problem, not Muzzy's.
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E-tard
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted July 11, 2006 09:42 AM
Who would want a "downloaded" map in their bike anyway? They are virtually useless. I'd rather start from a ZERO map than even bother with building from someone else's dyno map. Every bike is different. Put two identical ZX14s on a dyno and they will need different maps!
Buy your pipe, buy your powercommander, and go to a reputable tuner with wideband capability and have a custom map made for YOUR BIKE.
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted July 11, 2006 09:49 AM
Maybe we should all buy a pipe bender and make our own exhuast to. If you (speedgene) live in an area where you can get a custom map made on a dyno good for you. not all of us have that option. and Brock don't have a problem sending out a map with his pipe purchase so why does muzzy? And its hard to get a whole lot better map then brock sends you even ifr you have someone close to you with a dyno. His maps are pretty close to being right on. If Muzzy is going to sell the pipe they could send you a map even if it needs fine tuned alittle. Oh ya I will also purchase my frame sliders, dry nitrous kit and air shifter somewhere else as well. They also had a piss poor tone of voice on the phone today.
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted July 11, 2006 10:35 AM
Bently, my option is the lapper if the dyno is N/A. I'll teach myself by reading the tutorials. You want to stray away from stock, you'll have to make the effort toward learning how to "re-tune" the bike. You brought it upon yourself. You said it... "pretty close"... but not Spot-On! Who tunes, "Close Enough?" How much time do you spend on the sync of the throttle body?... just close enough, or (clutch quiet) spot-on? Again, the argument is the, "state of tune"... is it not?
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E-tard
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted July 11, 2006 11:10 AM
quote:
Maybe we should all buy a pipe bender and make our own exhuast to. If you (speedgene) live in an area where you can get a custom map made on a dyno good for you. not all of us have that option. and Brock don't have a problem sending out a map with his pipe purchase so why does muzzy? And its hard to get a whole lot better map then brock sends you even ifr you have someone close to you with a dyno. His maps are pretty close to being right on. If Muzzy is going to sell the pipe they could send you a map even if it needs fine tuned alittle. Oh ya I will also purchase my frame sliders, dry nitrous kit and air shifter somewhere else as well. They also had a piss poor tone of voice on the phone today.
+1
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted July 11, 2006 11:16 AM
I hear guys say a downloaded map is no good. WHY?
Every bike is different. Do you think every bike
come from the factory with a custom map?
No, even a stock bike can benifit from a custom map,
but you don't go crying i won't ride it until i get it mapped.
A good map for a pipe will be closer for some than others
just like the stock PCM on new bikes.
If you are not happpy with the way your bike runs, try another map or get a custom map.
IF you must have every hp in it map it.
If you are just street riding and recreational track days, a can map could save you hundreds.
I don't have anything againt custom maps, but FI is better than carbs and how many people
had the carbs professionally jetted on a dyno? It's a Bonus in my opinon.
ROB GIVE UP THE MAPS!
They are only good for your pipe. Reguardless of where they purchased the pipe, its your pipe.
This type of customer service and your two son-in-laws on the phones will put you out of business. You do have competition for KAW dollars now, look at APE and Brock's
and tell us why we should pay a premium to do business with Muzzys.
business 101.
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted July 11, 2006 11:34 AM
Time for a group buy on Midol?
I have said it before and I'll say it again... if you have $12K for the bike and $1.2K for the pipe & PC, open the purse and spend the money to get a custom map. Sure a canned map will work if you don't care about getting top perfromance. With that said, a canned map for just about any 4 into 1 system will get you by. Plenty of guys here have maps. Get one from them. I personally think tuning the greatest motorcycle ever on the cheap is a mistake.
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Vegasdude
Zone Head
Posts: 821
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posted July 11, 2006 12:10 PM
Brock's power commander maps are really good. My zx10 was perfect, when dynojet dynoed my bike and the 14 was 98% there. So you can trust his maps...............
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Stalwart
Needs a job
Posts: 3360
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posted July 11, 2006 01:26 PM
I just got confirmation that my Muzzy order (70 days waitin') has been cancelled at my request so it's off to Brocks I go!
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Stuart
________________________________
Ridin' the Trump train.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted July 11, 2006 01:28 PM
Brock is the MAN! You'll be very happy indeed...
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FYYFF!!!
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted July 11, 2006 01:32 PM
Edited By: Brock on 11 Jul 2006 14:33
I COMPLETELY DISAGREE that all bikes are "different" and need to be mapped individually comment!
That's like saying every fuel injected stock bike ever sold is mapped incorrectly from the factory- BullS*it.
I have mapped hundreds of stock engine bikes....of course, they will all have slight variances- BUT NOTHING you can feel on the street or even see on the dyno. Brock's Performance maps are precisely developed to work in conjunction with my components and several rules must be followed to assure proper operation (TPS position and a ZERO stock ECU for example- a problem Suzuki's have that I have not seen with the Kawasaki's)
I have been supplying maps to happy customers all over the country FOR YEARS.
When you take into affect the difference between a properly "Track Adjusted" map verses a map solely developed on a dyno- most guys SLOW DOWN after spending the cash for a private dyno session and PUT MY MAP BACK IN afterwards!
I tell our customers to save their money and buy something else nice for their bike.
Read our disclaimer at the bottom of our map support request sheet:
Map Support
Brock
Brock's Performance
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scificanada
Expert Class
Posts: 411
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posted July 11, 2006 02:01 PM
quote:
Why get on Rob's case about a map? It's just a generic map! If you look a Brocks maps, he's done with them. It's old data. It's digested, and is now irrelevant to his continuing work. Here you go. Either way, you selected a Pcom, and this performance unit needs to go further than "demanding" an obsolete map. I know at least one guy who wouldn't give up his map for a Brock or Muzzy map. Why?... because he did the dyno work!
I ride a stock bike, so I'm objectively thinking out loud. Step back and think about it for a minute. Rob does not deserve this. It's more your fault for not tuning the bike using the default map the Pcom came with. You bought the Pcom, now pay for the dyno time, and square it away, or stay on your lapper and find it the hard way. The final tune is your problem, not Muzzy's.
I am not on Rob's "CASE"
I had ordered one of his pipes. I requested one of his maps and was told i could only get HIS map if I purchased the PCIII from Muzzy as it as pre-loaded.. This is CRAP.
Brock is the man now, and maybe this thread will wake up the Muzzy of old, as now it's all about being corporate $$$$$$$$$
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Be a predator, not prey.
2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted July 11, 2006 05:46 PM
It was more of an open scenario with Rob having nothing to do with it, scificanada. The thing with the pipe, and pc creates a tuning problem all on it's own. Can we agree on that? Say someone finds a 10 pc on ebay, and applies it to the 14. Where do you start if Rob, or Brock won't help? Wouldn't you agree as a business (the support maps) are a valuable piece of data that goes along with changing the "exhaust" on modern computer bikes? You are compromising the original engineering, remember? You added two variables; one being exhaust flow, and other by changing fuel quantities. You took over what stock does automatically.
You have the option to push a few keystrokes, or leave it alone and run the "support map." Your option. I think the rules are fair at the house of Muzzy. No one is twisting your arm. I see Dynojet's Pcom support website as the place to go, not hammer on Rob because he's selling a packaged(?) deal. No matter. Figure it out at Dynojet's website. Work the tutorials if you want a faster bike. Again, not addressing anyone specifically.
What happend to the fun of tuning? No dropped jets you can't find, not ripped float bowl gaskets you just bought, no rounded float bowl screws removed for the umpteenth time. I'd be dancing on my tip toes knowing I don't have to drop 4 bowls anymore!
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E-tard
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted July 11, 2006 06:23 PM
Thanks Brock for your input, nuff said.
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scificanada
Expert Class
Posts: 411
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posted July 11, 2006 08:50 PM
Edited By: scificanada on 11 Jul 2006 21:52
speedgene Just to finsh this up...
This is the first time I've ever had do "Maps"... I have always been a Flatslide carb guy who rejeted and rejetted and rejetted.
I bought a NEW PCIII from a dealer before Muzzy was selling the actual ZX14 ones. They were selling re-worked 10s as Dyno Jet had not produced them yet. However I did order a Muzzy pipe as I like their product and have had great dealings with them in the past.
I don't expect Muzzy to give away their maps to anyone and everyone, however I ORDERED THEIR PIPE..... yes a MUZZY pipe!!! I don't see why i have to but a PCIII from them (pre-loaded) to get the map for THEIR PIPE that I bought from THEM!
And all due respect, my days of spending the day enjoying tuning are over... I want to bolt on my pipe, plug in and install my PCIII, and go for a blast.
I do plan on taking my bike with pipe to a Dyno shop, but this is not the point, Muzzy's should support their product (the Pipe) regardless where I bought, inherited, stole, or aquired the PCIII...
When I asked to logic of this, I was told, "well that's how Rob wants it, it may change, but for now if you don't buy the PCIII from us (which we are out of stock on) you can't have it."
Yea i can get the map from someonewho has purchased the PCIII from Muzzy, but I shouldn't have to, that is the point...
So I am now a Brock customer... Thanks FBA for the referal, and Thanks Brock, for the customer support... you have a new loyal customer.
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Be a predator, not prey.
2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
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vegasdude
Zone Head
Posts: 821
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posted July 11, 2006 09:56 PM
Edited By: vegasdude on 11 Jul 2006 22:56
MU$$Y!!
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BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
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posted July 11, 2006 10:11 PM
I have a Brock's Street Meg and his map and this thing pulls so hard I can barely hold on to the handle bars. Not to mention that I sent Brock a email asking him a question and he personally replied the same day... HOW IS THAT FOR CUSTOMER SERVICE... So if Brock says his maps are right that is good enough for me. And I agree with you guys about no longer supporting muzzy tuners need to realize that this is a customer oriented business. That is why all the local riders here quit goin to dealerships for Oil changes new tires and stuff like that cause they just try to GOUGE you on price... When was the last time you paid 80 bucks to have the oil changed in your car huh? ok I am through
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted July 12, 2006 04:10 AM
Edited By: speedgene on 12 Jul 2006 05:14
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/02-trex/DynoZX-14.jpg (retrieved from zx14ninja.com - Subject title: ZXBOB's Dyno @ 147/102)
Take a look at that A/F ratio. This is a map basically keystroke to this specific bike. Would I download another fuel map from a support group from say, the advertisers here at bikeland? Or, do the work on my own, and come up close to this (url) map?
(Understand that I am not suggesting to modify the pipe manufacturere's maps. None whatsoever. Install and haul. Have fun.)
Well then, there you go, scificanda. I believe I was describing you as the proverbial, "Mr. Turnkey Guy." See, you want your cake and eat it too. Your specific situation with Muzzy Co. is their "map" policy. What I'm saying is "loophole" it by doing the map work just like the old days. Nothing has changed! You compromised the stock tune. What did you expect? I'm sure you're not the first person to have this same (similar, completely different ) situation with a Muzzy map? Thus the policy! Guess what, scificanada? You almost had to do your jetting like the old days. Instead, you jumped ship. Looks like support maps will be part of the pipe business. Bottom line, you didn't need their map support.
I see no problem purchasing a pipe/map package from the manufacturers, plus receiving the extra support that comes with it. What I have a problem with is a "pick a part" kind of scenario, and then bashing the Company. On top of that, you have the ability to tune the bike on your own; be it by laptop or dyno! I see your point, scificanada, and I see the point made by company policy. What I did was put myself in your position, scifi. I would have said, "OK, thanks" and hung up. Then crack open the lapper and start making my own map. Problem solved.
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E-tard
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted July 12, 2006 04:57 AM
Speedgene...I believe he was pissed that muzzy wouldn't supply a map for their pipes, the very same ones he ordered from them, because he didn't buy the PC3 from them. Pipes need to be compensated for on a bike and if the seller/manufacturer has such a map, it would be their duty to keep customer's satisfied by supplying that map instead of gouging the customer. If I had a pre-existing PC3 and bought Muzzy's pipes and they refused to supply me with a map, I'd tell them to shove their pipes up their collective asses. I side with SCIFI as do a number of other members here too. Muzzy is just being stupid about this and they are losing business because of this policy they have.
There are many other alternatives, as I and others have obviously stated. Why should anyone have to pay to Dyno if they choose not to? Brock, an industry expert has indicated that a good map will produce near perfect results on the same setup from bike to bike and that the differences are imperceptible. Vegas dude has confirmed this as well...how many of us need that last 1% difference that we would achieve by a custom tune?
No two bikes are exactly the same -- true, but do you think each bike has a different factory map? Not likely...
And to reiterate, the maps I am speaking of would only work given that the bikes had the samesetup as the Dyno mapped bike.
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FYYFF!!!
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