Bently
Needs a life
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Posts: 5428
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posted June 10, 2006 06:53 AM
ZX-10r.net loves Ivan and his TRE
Well I don't know how many of you visit the ZX10 board but It's funny how everyone over there think the tre is the best thing ever and Ivan responds on that board all the time. But over here he won't defend himself at all or even respond and Everyone over here thinks the TRE is a joke (me Included). Just think it's funny the two boards could be so different.
  
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johns
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Posts: 205
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posted June 10, 2006 07:18 AM
ZX-14 TRE
Doesn't surprise me bently. Most of the opinions I see are not based on factual dyno testing but reflect subjective opinions. I installed one of the first TRE's shipped by Ivan and it is subjectively (my opinion not based dyno testing) exactly what the man represented it to be. There is a small improvement where the torque dip occurs with the stock maps. Since it locks the bike into the 6th gear map you can only feel the improved response in the lower gears and only in the RPM range where Ivans dyno test shows a small improvement. Ivan did post on another ZX-14 site until the owner of that site decided to bad mouth the product after Ivan apparently refused to sponsor the site. Funny thing is that the site owner was promoting the TRE as a cost effective modification until Ivan refused to be a sponsor the site. Makes you wonder if he (the site owner) would still be promoting the product if Ivan had ponied up the sponsor fees. I don't know Ivan and this is the first TRE I have installed on a bike but I have used his jet kits which I purchased through Muzzy performance and they were good products. Just my 2c worth.
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fish_antlers
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posted June 10, 2006 07:32 AM
You should always be leary about visiting a site that looks like a Las Vegas strip mall, and wonder about their motivation.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted June 10, 2006 07:37 AM
Agreed fish and I seldom visit that site anymore after concluding it was primarily a vehicle for promoting aftermarket sales with discounts only available through the site owner.
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted June 10, 2006 07:46 AM
Ya fish but there are also some guys on there with good info as well you can ignore the strip mall.
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted June 10, 2006 08:12 AM
quote:
You should always be leary about visiting a site that looks like a Las Vegas strip mall, and wonder about their motivation.
That was yer buddy Greg BTW - Ivan told him he wouldn't pay $3500.00 for an ad then Greg told him he wouldn't promote his TREe's then Ivan started in bout not havin a storefront then, this one time at band camp....
It's a great read - no really 
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted June 10, 2006 08:17 AM
http://www.zx14ninja.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=849
Just in case ya wanna read it.
Look around the performance section on that site and you'll see a few TREe threads too.
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stan55
Expert Class
Posts: 112
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posted June 10, 2006 09:16 AM
Fish,
IVAN is out of town with the Yamaha FZ1 forum at Deals Gap.... Give him a call on Thursday... He should be there.
Stan
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fish_antlers
Administrator
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posted June 10, 2006 09:25 AM
stan.. thanks for the info, but Ivan needs to contact us if he wants to the TRE tested.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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stan55
Expert Class
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posted June 10, 2006 09:31 AM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 10 Jun 2006 10:37
That's cool... I was just giving you the heads up.
* spam removed *
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fish_antlers
Administrator
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posted June 10, 2006 09:36 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 10 Jun 2006 10:39
stan... no offence for the edit, but we're done with the Ivan spam.
As far as we're concerned his product is nothing more than a money grab until we can test it and verify it.
Like I've said before, the guy has gotten way too much free airplay on this site...
and as I do happen to agree with certain points Ivan raises about his dealings with "the other site", I can't help but agree with "the other site" about the marketing tactics Ivan is employing basically getting his advertsing for free on sites by creating all of this chatter.
It costs money to keep this site running... we wont even entertain advertising his product until we can verify that it actually works.
When we take on a sponsor, we are personally vouching for their products.
Please put an end to this Ivan spam.
Once again, until we have the opportunity to verify third party that this product does anything, we can't endorse it in any way shape or form.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted June 10, 2006 09:41 AM
I wasn't starting any Ivan spam just think it's funny how one group of guys think the TRE is the best thing out there and most of us on this site think it's a joke and I have my own reasons for thinking that as I installed on on my 05 zx10 and seen no changes even at off throttle till half throttle like he says.
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fish_antlers
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posted June 10, 2006 09:53 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 10 Jun 2006 10:58
I understand that Bently... but what some members dont realize (or maybe they do) is that the "chatter" or "buzz" being created around this product is a technique called "affinity marketing"... that's when colloquial information is passed around communities like this to generate sales. It's members vouching for something that helps sell product. Mindful of it or not, you're all part of the Ivan marketing machine.
It's specifically for that reason we don't allow non-sponsors to promote their products in this manner. Members (esp new members) have a hard time differentiating "spam" from real topics... Over the years we've seen people do things like this over and over... from the obvious : creating a brand new account and logging in to say how great something is... to the not so obvious... deputizing a member by giving him/her a free product or giving them a discount so they will tell people about it..... the easiest to spot is someone organizing a "group buy".
it goes on and on...
we're caught in the tough position where we need to protect your right to free speech, and at the same time filter out the affinity marketing tactics. Often members sort it out themselves... (this whole TRE thing seems to be going in that direction)... but when you see the vendor making comments about how he has no intention of advertising on any site let alone paying $3500 or whatever the amount, this shows us that he has no idea of the "value" of the ad space or the amount of time, effort and money it costs to run a site (certainly one of this size).
Even with all of the financial support we have received over the years, this site (in particular) is heavily funded by our own personal cash, and beyond that the tens of thousands of hours of "free work" we put in (not including the dedicated efforts of the moderators and you, the contributors)
It's when you look at it from that perspective that you start to get antsy when someone looks for what people would consider a "free ride"... We didnt create this site to make money.. we havent made a penny... we started this because we love to ride..
if people want to flog their warez they need to respect that and contribute like all the other sponsors, provided their product lives up to its promise.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted June 10, 2006 09:56 AM
Edited By: johns on 10 Jun 2006 11:16
TRE controversy
Yep, thats the site and Greg is the man. I have to say in the interest of honesty that I benefited financially from using that site. I purchased my ZX-14 through my membership in the private section of Gregs site from Honda East at a price I have not seen anywhere else and I do thank him for arranging that special pricing for site members. I still go there occasionally as some of the folks over here make useful and interesting contributions to the conversation there. As far as the rest of the site goes I am leery of products being promoted by someone acting as a sales agent and benefitting financially from the transactions. As far as Ivan and his TRE product for the ZX-14 I think he is getting a bad rap. When I ordered my TRE I spoke to Ivan personally and he made no extravigant or as far as I can tell untrue claims for the product. He only claimed a increase in a limited RPM range in gears other than 6th gear. He told me that he thinks its additional value will be when a power commander and ignition module are available to go with it. According to my conversation with Ivan when I ordered the TRE the currently available Dynojet ignition module will only optimize one ignition map. He picked the 6th gear map to lock in because it has the best stock ignition advance curve. When you start trying to optimize the ignition map how do you do that for an ignition with different maps for different gears with a module that will only modify one map. Am I missing something here? Whether this proves to be true or not the TRE made a small but noticable improvement (my subjective opinion) in the low RPM performance in the lower gears and thats all Ivan claimed it would do when I ordered it. Sorry for seeming to promote his product Fish. I see you're point about vendors getting a free ride but I don't see any difference in this subject product and all the guys I have seen on this site over the years expressing opinions promoting or panning Muzzy , Acrapovich, Brock Davidson, Dynojet and a hundred other products that may or may not be sponsors. Most of the opinions I have seen here have been negative concerning the TRE for the ZX-14 and have, I would think, not helped Ivans sales for this product. This is of course you're site and you have the right to shut down debate or discussion on any subject and I respect that.
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Drowland
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posted June 10, 2006 10:01 AM
funny shit here..
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princesskiwi
Administrator
MISTRESS of SMACK
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posted June 10, 2006 10:08 AM
It is important to me that this site doesn't become a 'home shopping network'.
The people we ask to advertise at bikeland.org produce products we use and believe in.
If anyone ever has any problems with the people who advertise at bikeland, they are free to post their complaints.
I would never agree to advertise a product I haven't used and tested.
I have never used TRE and wouldn't sell them an ad until myself, Fish_Antlers and Freek all tested the product and agreed that it was worthy of advertising to the bikeland community.
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dubious
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posted June 10, 2006 10:39 AM
The reason most of us zx14 owners think the TRE sucks is because Ivan blatantly tried to mislead uss to beleive removing the secondary throttle plates would not help power, but his product did.
After a trial run, traial because I have to get the lean low rpm fuelling straightened out.... has proven to make a much more substantial difference than his TRE, and it does not leave some of the other desirable traits of the bike disabled like the TRE.
Honesty is what sells, and if he told us he could help the power addition at low rpm 's in addition to the secondary throttle plate removal then we would might be interested... but to blatantly mis lead people and IMO lie to people.... thats bad business.
I'll spend $400 on and ignition module that will allow timing adjustments if the power increase is substantial... but not $80 on a product that disables desireable features, and has a rep who LIES to people.
I'm sure brock will be testing ignition modules and the sort of thing and when he does will have an honest review.
Till then .... 
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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TJ
Zone Head
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posted June 10, 2006 11:06 AM
quote:
I understand that Bently... but what some members dont realize (or maybe they do) is that the "chatter" or "buzz" being created around this product is a technique called "affinity marketing"... that's when colloquial information is passed around communities like this to generate sales. It's members vouching for something that helps sell product. Mindful of it or not, you're all part of the Ivan marketing machine.
Fish, you are wrong about affinity marketing (just wrong terminology). That is not what Ivan is employing. I'm not saying that what Ivan does is right. Simply pointing out you are incorrectly labeling marketing campaigns. Certainly no crime in doing so. I have an MBA in marketing so I tend to get annoyed at misinformation.
I like this site and appreciate its availability to members. There is no question that we are all a part of your marketing machine. After all, without us (the audience), there would be no reason for your sponsors to write you checks  One of the most important principles in audience development is providing the audience with information or access to the information they desire. I have a perception of censorship regarding Ivan's products. Again, I really could care less about his products....just the principle of censorship.
I guess my years of marketing in the newspaper business (the utlimate audience/advertising machine) has taught me a thing or two about audience development. Just my 2 cents (which probably means nothing here)...
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fish_antlers
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posted June 10, 2006 11:29 AM
tj... perhaps your definition of "affinity marketing" and mine blur slightly, or I am not providing a textbook definition... if you want to argue semantics Ivan is emplying some hybrid combination of viral techniques and affinity techniques and whatever other techniques you learned about and I didnt cuz I'm a slacker... label them what you want.. or dont label them at all but he is "marketing", he doesnt want to "pay" anyone and he is selling product... on top of that he appears to be not forthcoming in having his product evaluated.
I think you'll agree that our site affords a very liberal level of free speech, and we frown on censorship.. I think you would also agree that at some point we have to say enough is enough with someone flogging their warez. (directly or indirectly)
That you have a degree in marketing is fantastic. I certainly dont, however I have 6 years experience running this gong show. Ivan is nothing new... not only have we dealt with him before, but we've dealt with countless other marketers selling goods in various forms over the last 6 years (a long time in "internet years").
Generally they all fit the same bill; they want to get exposure for free.
Thankfully industry (in general) is finally turning around and recognizing the Internet (again) as a valid media and a legitimate method to sell their product.
There's a mechanism in place for people to sell product. Posing as other people, creating new accounts and paying people off to post about their stuff is both dishonest and underhanded. We review items just like and print publication. Ivan can follow the steps just like everyone else has.
We didnt build the site to sell his TREs.
Other than that, thanks for the note.. I certainly wont debate you on marketing terminology.... What I know is what I've learned first hand.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TJ
Zone Head
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posted June 10, 2006 11:44 AM
Edited By: TJ on 10 Jun 2006 13:10
Like I said Fish, your misstatements are certainly not crimes. Affinity marketing is the marketing to consumers or groups while appealing to their affinity for something (that is where the name comes from). Credit card companies are well known for affinity marketing. An example would be the marketing of a Green Bay Packers credit card to people that would most likely have an affinity for the Green Bay Packers.
No big deal. I don't question your knowledge and you never claimed to have any advanced level of marketing knowledge. Since you were talking about [Ivan's] marketing tactics, I though I would chime in and at least try to get everyone to use proper terms
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fish_antlers
Administrator
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posted June 10, 2006 11:54 AM
how bout this:
Ivan spam... no pay
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted June 10, 2006 11:57 AM
Dead on 
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted June 10, 2006 04:54 PM
What if a pipe manufacturer like AKRO, SATO, etc. put out the the best HP pipe for the 14 and the bikeland members were coming on here drooling over them?
That doesn't mean that the pipe makers are spamming this site, does it?
I guess on the other side of it, one of the board sponsors might sell the pipes. Along with power commanders, K&N, BMC, etc. Is Dyno Jet spamming this site?
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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fish_antlers
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posted June 10, 2006 08:33 PM
hava... if say *insert munufacturer here* made a conscious effort to sell their product here "under the table" or "under the radar" so to speak, and we caught wind of it, we'd shut it down.
As PK mentioned... this place isnt the "Home Shopping Network"... never has... never will be
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 10, 2006 09:01 PM
quote:
The reason most of us zx14 owners think the TRE sucks is because Ivan blatantly tried to mislead uss to beleive removing the secondary throttle plates would not help power, but his product did.
After a trial run, traial because I have to get the lean low rpm fuelling straightened out.... has proven to make a much more substantial difference than his TRE, and it does not leave some of the other desirable traits of the bike disabled like the TRE.
Honesty is what sells, and if he told us he could help the power addition at low rpm 's in addition to the secondary throttle plate removal then we would might be interested... but to blatantly mis lead people and IMO lie to people.... thats bad business.
I'll spend $400 on and ignition module that will allow timing adjustments if the power increase is substantial... but not $80 on a product that disables desireable features, and has a rep who LIES to people.
I'm sure brock will be testing ignition modules and the sort of thing and when he does will have an honest review.
Till then ....
My thoughts exactly to the T dude...I couldn't have said it better than you just did. Some of the members here just don't get it...he's gettin a bad rap because he lied for profit and BTW, I'm also going to buy that ignition module and get it dyno'ed and tuned alonhg with the rest of the Brock setup.
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FYYFF!!!
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