200mphclub
Novice Class
Posts: 37
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posted May 25, 2006 04:18 PM
Watch suzuki sitting back in their chairs reading all this so next year they can come out with their 1400gsxr and not have this low end problem.Then whats the point of having your zx14 if it gets its azz kicked? Love my 14 but this will be an issue.
  
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted May 25, 2006 04:44 PM
quote:
Watch suzuki sitting back in their chairs reading all this so next year they can come out with their 1400gsxr and not have this low end problem.Then whats the point of having your zx14 if it gets its azz kicked? Love my 14 but this will be an issue.
If you buy any motorcycle because you want it to be the "best or fastest or lightest/etc.." for many years, you will only set yourself up for disappointment. No bike stays at the top of the speed category forever (although the ZX11 may be a record holder)...
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted May 25, 2006 04:59 PM
Put the 16 tooth front sprocket on and a pipe that should do the job for the low end acceleration!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted May 25, 2006 06:23 PM
There are 4 wires coming off the gear motor that runs the "Subthrottle" (book term for the electronic gear driven throttle plate). All 4 wires head into the ECU.
If you (I) could figure out which wires need to touch together, so as not to spit a code 32 (I know so well)... then somehow touch the other two wires to tell the ECU the plate moved, then you can tie in the subthrottle sensor to move with the main throttle, (cabled) off the return throttle.
Here's another theory to try: Even the throttle shafts (both sub and main) that are key'd into the throttle sensors, lag behind... meaning, the shafts physically turn before the shaft's flat-blade touches the key'd internal sensor wheel that sends a signal to the ECU. The staking (or gluing) of the shaft into the female internal end might give the bike a different (or quicker throttle) response? It seems the easiest and fastest if you wanted to shake the variable out of the slop in the throttle sensors?
This is somewhat doable, and the throttle body unit is splattered on the bench as we speak. At this point, I have nothing to lose. BTW, I did cure the code 32. All it took was $$$.
I think the no low end power band is so wide, you might not close the gap with the tre?
I now have a total of 187 miles on the Speedo.... believe it or not. This bike needs nothing. I'm up someone's ass before I have to lift on the throttle, or burn down the pad before I tap their rear bumper.. Oh, I am not nice to this bike either. Hard-hard hammering when I am out. It's such a nice ride.
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E-tard
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted May 25, 2006 06:47 PM
I'll tell ya one thing... Ivan better talk to us about buying an ad if he's gonna sell his widgets on here.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 26, 2006 07:32 PM
Speedgene. I agree with you on the wide low end power band...and the TRE not closing the gap...I can tell you that my Busa ran over 80LBS RWTQ at 3K (I've said this before) and this TREEEEE can't get the bike to 65? This engine can do over 85 IMO, stock...All I can say to everyone is to wait it out...someone will get the mapping at the ECU level. Matt, I think you're 100% right about the air temp having little effect on the map...its not the outside air influence, it's the engine temp that counts. Engine temp data can be found on the CANbus, and changed through data withough hitting the ECU...just needs someone to figure out what to do...just needs enough $$$$ for engineering time. It's quite simple actually and I know the right people to do this, just a time problem...I may try and convince them to at least look at the data. Does anyone know the precise location of the engine temp sensor? That would help me get started...
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FYYFF!!!
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted May 26, 2006 09:08 PM
The water temp sensor is at the back of the cylinder wall jacket, just to the left of #3 cylinder... (looking from the rear).
OK, so you buy another water temp sensor, wire both air and water temp sensors close together and spray both with the dust-freeze can. I know the water temp (like cars) registers temp to help measure the fuel feed input to the ECU.
It's easier to do one thing at a time, and eliminate a variable. That's why I only mentioned to test one (air temp sensor) component's reaction at a time?
Reluctantly I agree fba. A new DFI black box can change the whole character of the bike. I hate being handcuffed to that subthrottle.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 26, 2006 09:13 PM
Thanks, should help us out....I'll let you know how things progress.
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FYYFF!!!
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted May 27, 2006 04:12 AM
Instead of trying to cool the engine temp sensor, couldn't you just bypass it with a resistor or something? Seems like you could wire in a resistor with a toggle switch to tell the ECU that the engine was cold whenver you wanted "more power".
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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WARBIRD
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted May 27, 2006 03:07 PM
Friend dynoed his 14 the other day. 167.9 HP..............pulled the air cleaner........172..........4th gear run netted 25lbs less than 5th gear run every time. Gotta be timing and fuel mapping as WELL as the rate at which the butterflies are opening. She will fly when we can use the more aggresive maps in the lower gears. Bike had 500 miles on it and was at 3200 feet above sea level..................... 
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I'd Rather Be Roadracing.
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WARBIRD
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted May 27, 2006 03:10 PM
quote:
Salwart,
i think the secondaries are motor operated, whist the primaries are throttle operated.
Instead of using vaccuum secondary like a cv carb, the ecu is programed to operate the secondary.
This why it will not be a simple fix...
Will have burn a new secondary throttle contol program and I'm sure it involves, load(gear), speed, air temp, barometric press, throttle position, and works with the ignition curve.
Its gonna take 10 little men in white coats, and hours of dyno to get it right most likely.
I hope not but....
Yep yep yep............   Exactly sir.........
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I'd Rather Be Roadracing.
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted May 27, 2006 06:26 PM
Kawasaki should offer it as an option, or something.
And not some $1500 one either. Switchable on the bars would be ideal so it would be rideable on wet pavement etc.
Probably will unleash the beast when the new busa drops in.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted May 27, 2006 11:27 PM
What's weird in KAWK's world with the first 12 and 10r's, they revised them later to be MORE tame after a couple of years.
I wonder how much of a beast the 14 really was?
( I am finally getting around to doing the small air box mod on my 05 busa, this was to increase tq below 3K RPM, but it robs a little HP at peak RPM's)
I don't think that the EPA is going to let anyone give us the bike that WE really want. My '02 Aprilia was the first year that did not have 2 maps built in. You use to be able to just cut a wire to get the 'hotter' map.
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted May 28, 2006 12:50 AM
I hadn't noticed it being stronger when cold until tonight when I left for work. It definately had lots more grunt when I first took off on it. One needed to pay the hell attention at low rpm if your playing around with the gas.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 28, 2006 01:49 AM
quote:
What's weird in KAWK's world with the first 12 and 10r's, they revised them later to be MORE tame after a couple of years.
I wonder how much of a beast the 14 really was?
( I am finally getting around to doing the small air box mod on my 05 busa, this was to increase tq below 3K RPM, but it robs a little HP at peak RPM's)
I don't think that the EPA is going to let anyone give us the bike that WE really want. My '02 Aprilia was the first year that did not have 2 maps built in. You use to be able to just cut a wire to get the 'hotter' map.
Did that mod on my 04...not sure you want to go that route...it involves removing the flapper and thet removes the low end TQ...and makes the bike run jerky at low RPM in the low gears.
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FYYFF!!!
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted May 28, 2006 04:01 AM
Since the power commander for the ZX10R works on the ZX-14, maybe the ECU on the 10R would work on the 14. Well???? Maybe? 13,000 rpm redline on a 1352cc motor?
Welll???
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted May 28, 2006 08:09 AM
Throw the Busa ECU in the 14. That's what I thought reading zxtnt's 10 swap.
Take cold readings off the DFI/engine sensors, (water temp-inlet air temp-atmospheric pressure-inlet air pressure... w/rear atmo/press/sen in the tail out of play). That's just to figure out how to tie/toggle the wires (hope for the best @ not to blow a fuse, or burn a diode in the circuit board)... trying to find the "Morning Map."
Second round of sensors to mess with... are the subthrottle's gear driven throttle actuator unit, and it's TPS (throttle position sensor) at the end of the shaft. That's a separate issue from the main throttle's TPS you need to match/mis-match; tricking the subthrottle to open at double or triple the speed it's programmed to now.
Definitely a simple factory fix to remap a new ECU (Extra Crunch Underneath).
Looks like I'm done trying to take the handcuffs off this bike by messing with the subthrottle,TPS, and whatever else it takes?
So, I wait (what feels like) a full second of lag before the front end comes up. It is what it is. I can still live with this bike.
The real problem is this bike has an insatiable appetite for roads. I thought there was more asphalt here on earth?
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E-tard
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted May 28, 2006 03:26 PM
OT for FBA-
You should be able to dyno tune the busa after the small box mod and get it to run very smooth with a power commander and a good dyno operator.
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 28, 2006 05:16 PM
Tried that with no luck and even the support guys at Dynojet said that that was the way this bike would be after all the mods...quite normal...Speedgene, yer whacked, can't take a Busa ECU and put it on a 14...no matter how hard you try. Can't do a 10 swap either.
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FYYFF!!!
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted May 28, 2006 06:55 PM
Why not the 10R ECU?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 29, 2006 01:56 AM
totally different wirng for one...
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FYYFF!!!
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted May 29, 2006 04:07 AM
At which end.??? Since evidently the ZX10R power commander is a plug and play device on the ZX14....
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted May 29, 2006 08:10 AM
 Edited By: speedgene on 29 May 2006 09:19
Subtleties fba, I kind of sneak those in every so often.
Zxtnt, good question. Does the 10 use a 60 pin connector, and does each pin match the 14's wire harness routing?
It looks like the ('06) 10 uses the same subthrottle system? The parts page sure shows the same gear box between # 2-3 throttle bodies?
I have no idea how a 10 performs on the bottom? Are we talking lots of bottom?
Determine if the spray time needs stepping up, or step up the subthrottle timing, I would move a 14, and a 10 side by side. I would then watch the subthrottle action's timed against the main throttle's bell crank. Match rpm blips and note the speed at which the 10 moves as opposed to the 14 subthrottle's movement?
If the subthrottle plates match, then I would assume spray timing on the 14 (not enough fuel at the bottom) needs to read a "fatter map?"
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted May 29, 2006 08:55 AM
guys guys....
The ignition timing, speedo pickup, virtuually every operating parameter will be different between these to bikes.
Thats like saying your gonna use the hood off a vette to make the F350 more aerodynamic.
sorry...
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 29, 2006 10:09 AM
quote:
At which end.??? Since evidently the ZX10R power commander is a plug and play device on the ZX14....
It's not, connector wiring is NOT the same..if you check around you'll see that...I called DynoJet on this subject and they told me that engineering was at least a month off before a unit would be ready.
Converting an ECU from a 10 to a 14 ...mapping is not the real or only issue...more like a connector problem and other ECU software issues that would be a problem to convert, unless you knew how to read and write the cource code. Mapping is NOT the only thing that changes from model to model. There are many other things that get controlled by the ECU, like most of the cluster gauges...and other pertinent electrical devices. The list goes on and on...
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FYYFF!!!
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