ZREXER
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posted May 12, 2006 07:22 AM
quote:
I am told by Brock that anything over 87 octane KILLS power...I have my 10R on the Dyno with 94 in it right now and am going to run it with 87 to see what the difference is...
I picked up my bike yesterday (more detailed report to follow). The sticker on the tank said to use 90+ octane or severe engine damage would result. I would much rather burn regular due to cost. I understand that higher octane does not make more power unless the engine specifically requires it.
So.................................what's the deal here, ignore Kawsaki's octane recomendation and go with 87 octane?
  
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psycho1122
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posted May 12, 2006 07:26 AM
I would not run the 87 octane untill you have a PC and a good map.
As lean as they run these bikes for emissions, you could run the risk of detonation from 0-5000 rpm loading it down in the upper gears.
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ZX11D
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posted May 12, 2006 07:30 AM
 Edited By: ZX11D on 12 May 2006 08:33
There are many factors that would determine the fuel octane requirement for a specific engine. One of the major ones is the compression ratio the engine runs. I would not hesitate to put lower octane fuel to a car that specifies 91 Octane, but runs 9.5 ratio, for which 87 Oct. would be just fine, except for driving under heavy load and towing. On ZX14, which has ratio of 12.0, I would not use anything less than 91 Oct, ever. Besides, the gas mileage is relatively much better than any small to medium size cage. The fuel cost saving would not be worth the risk of serious engine damage. 
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Stalwart
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posted May 12, 2006 07:35 AM
quote:
So.................................what's the deal here, ignore Kawsaki's octane recomendation and go with 87 octane?
In this case, Kawasaki does know best. Unless there is a knock sensor on the engine (almost all cars have them) you run the risk of damage. Plus, even if there is a knock sensor, and the timing can be retarded to allow a lower octane gas, you often loose more in fuel economy and power due to the retarded timing to pay for the better fuel.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 12, 2006 07:37 AM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 12 May 2006 08:38
MR9 is 87 octane..
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ZREXER
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posted May 12, 2006 08:23 AM
Getting back to the original thread..........
First day on the bike and I found it was kind of annoying the way the engine feels limited under 5000 rpm. There is still decent power for sure and it is a little deceptive how hard the engine is actuallly pulling because it is so smooth and so damn quiet.
That said, in a sub 5000 rpm roll on, my old ZRX would leave the '14 for dead I am quite sure. Different story over 5000 as the '14 would walk away from the ZRX quite easily.
I kind of miss the strong low end performance of the ZRX, but I lik everything else the '14 offers.
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tool man
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posted May 12, 2006 08:31 AM
quote:
Getting back to the original thread..........
First day on the bike and I found it was kind of annoying the way the engine feels limited under 5000 rpm. There is still decent power for sure and it is a little deceptive how hard the engine is actuallly pulling because it is so smooth and so damn quiet.
That said, in a sub 5000 rpm roll on, my old ZRX would leave the '14 for dead I am quite sure. Different story over 5000 as the '14 would walk away from the ZRX quite easily.
I kind of miss the strong low end performance of the ZRX, but I lik everything else the '14 offers.
I feel the same way. Wait till someone figures out how to uncork this bike below 5K and then watch out. 
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zerMATT
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posted May 12, 2006 09:50 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 12 May 2006 10:52
Another thing to keep in mind with our current high-ish fuel prices: The cost difference between mid-grade (around here, that's 89 octane) and hi-grade 93 octane is still only $0.10. Percentage-wise, that's only about a .034% increase in cost. That's about half of the percentage of increase when gas was $1.50-$1.60/gallon.
As gas prices rise, the relative difference between regular, mid, and premium will continue to drop. 
Just a little perspective 
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dubious
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posted May 12, 2006 10:51 AM
Edited By: dubious on 12 May 2006 11:53
Kawasaki knows that pump fuel is not consistant like any of the race fuels that have been mentioned.
Pump fuels are unpredicatble, alcohol content, mtbe or other oxygenates are often present, distillation curves range widely as do flash points, ron and mon therefor vary widely as well.
They just CTA because they know that 87 advertised often does not equall that at the pump.
Or the addittives cause the motor to run hotter combustion chamber/ cyl head temps, necessitating higher octanes to fight detonation.
Ohh BTW every engine i have seen running (properly) on reg pump fuel and more than 13:1 compression, could ( or did) make more power with more timing and higher octane.
just my
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zxbob
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posted May 12, 2006 02:42 PM
But keep in mind that "Research Octane" is typically 2 to 4 points lower than "Motor Octane"
The 91 "research octane" at the pump could be as low as 88 "motor octane"
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 12, 2006 02:44 PM
I learned something new now! Thanks for the input ZX
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psycho1122
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posted May 12, 2006 02:47 PM
ZREXER: Find ways to allow the engine to run cooler OVERALL. The ECU will give some back to you
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ZREXER
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posted May 12, 2006 03:21 PM
Edited By: ZREXER on 12 May 2006 16:38
quote:
ZREXER: Find ways to allow the engine to run cooler OVERALL. The ECU will give some back to you
Well, I live in the right part of the world then, cool weather, we have plenty of! I was kind of excited when people complained of engine heat. It would be a welcome contrast to all the days I have frozen my ass off on a 'naked' bike.
Being in Edmonton we have long riding days as it is light out almost to 10:00 pm now and another month, 11:00 pm
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zxbob
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posted May 12, 2006 03:53 PM
quote:
ZREXER: Find ways to allow the engine to run cooler OVERALL. The ECU will give some back to you
Yep ........ On the ZX if we can find a cooler t-stat ( 160* to 180* ) that hard running
in the "cold start" it does ........ we can keep some of it !
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psycho1122
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posted May 12, 2006 03:57 PM
Actually; all you need to do is run a higher water content like 70% or so. It will allow the system to dissapate more heat quickly.
I run this mix in my 12 and observed a 15-20 degree drop overall.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 12, 2006 04:47 PM
quote:
quote:
ZREXER: Find ways to allow the engine to run cooler OVERALL. The ECU will give some back to you
Yep ........ On the ZX if we can find a cooler t-stat ( 160* to 180* ) that hard running
in the "cold start" it does ........ we can keep some of it !
That won't work...it doesn't matter how cold it is, the engine map that runs in the warm-up mode only runs for something like 2 minutes max...and I don't think it reads temp from the cooling system but from other heat sensors located somwhere on the block...but I'm sure someone will find a way to "uncork" this thing. I have engineers who work on CANbus all day long and they could send temp commands down the bus that would tell the ECM it's cold enough to run the right map, but I'm quite sure that there would be repercussions. Don't think the ECM wants to see that temp beyond a certain running time. We will probably look at this in the next little while, when engineering has time. I will let you all know what we find.
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psycho1122
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posted May 13, 2006 07:06 AM
Yes it does work.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 13, 2006 02:59 PM
Have you tried it on the 14? If it works, it's the simplest and cheapest way to go...the reason I don't think it will work, is because the engine map changes before the temp even hits close to 160...so I don't see how this would work...just curious. I'd love to be able to just change the stat to get that power!
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psycho1122
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posted May 23, 2006 06:02 AM
Think about this......
Cooler engine overall - same mapping of fuel curve (if that's the case here).
logically, what would the overall A/F be?!?
I'm sure it is likely that the ECU also observes overall engine temp. before giving you an ignition curve.
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scificanada
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posted May 23, 2006 12:29 PM
Edited By: scificanada on 23 May 2006 13:30
quote:
I was wondering if this would work. Unhook temp switch or put a resistor in the wire so the bike thinks its cold all the time. Just a thought.
My 84 Gpz 1100 was a Fuel Injected model.
Back then Yosh sold a "kit" for use with their pipe.
It was a Film Canister with a Varible resister in it that went inline with the engine temp sensor.
It worked OK???
BUT, ECM technology has come along a wee bit since then... no doubt we will all see a fix in due course.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 23, 2006 04:36 PM
psycho1122 -- the ECU uses more than temp to run the cold map...and the cold map runs very rich to compensate for the temp, too rich to run all the time, unless you want fouled plugs. The ECU also uses time to timeout that map...it's a safegaurd. IMO, the ECU must be remapped by someone who knows what and how to do this...putting a cold temp signal down the line -- I still don't believe that it will work. Furthermore, the temp sensor probably uses data on the CANbus, not simply voltage changes anymore...I'm not 100% sure about that, but in vehicles that run a CANbus, sensors are pushing data now.
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psycho1122
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posted May 23, 2006 05:50 PM
I am not refering to the "cold Map" running condition. I'm refering to overall operating temp. when warmed up. There is no doubt that cooler running (of course not too cool) will yield better performance overall...stock or modified.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 24, 2006 02:34 AM
True, but not what I'd call parallel to the cold running map...that map seems to run completely unrestricted...bike pulls at 3K like a tractor, quick twist pulls the front end up at 3K in a heartbeat
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TeamSpeed
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posted May 24, 2006 04:47 AM
quote:
True, but not what I'd call parallel to the cold running map...that map seems to run completely unrestricted...bike pulls at 3K like a tractor, quick twist pulls the front end up at 3K in a heartbeat
Yeah, this caught me unawares the other day, if you are not expecting the pull that the bike has on a cold map, it is freaky. I don't know if I would want that kind of torque all the time, but definitely want more than what is there now on the warm map. Somewhere about half way between what I feel right after a cold startup and what we end up with once it warms up would be good for me for everyday driving around in these parts.
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psycho1122
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posted May 24, 2006 06:33 AM
It appears that a good "combination" of Mapping, timing and air flow will be all the 14 needs to be very impressive.
Then again, my 2000 12 has all those things done and it is very impressive!
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