TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted April 27, 2006 06:19 PM
quote:
In my opinion, posting the pricing is doing a dis-service to your dealer. Generally, the best customers get the best pricing. I am sure that my dealer would not appreciate it if I posted my price. I think the price he provided to me was based the fact that he knows that all accessories and service will be done at his dealership.
If you are not planning to buy product from your dealer down the road and treat the bike as a commodity, post your price - if you value the relationship that you have with your dealer, keep it to yourself.
I disagree. If a dealer is giving a good price, posting that price could very well drive business to him. If a dealer is "knocking heads off" and charging high, who cares about him anyway?
  
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zermatt
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted April 27, 2006 06:20 PM
quote:
[Matt,
I think a salesperson has one of the worst jobs in the world. OK I'm going to explain to you how much your salesperson made and I'd like you to think about from the other side.
Yes most likely your sales man will make 20% on your sale!!! Sounds good right? Wrong I mean this is the only job that you have to smile when your (the salesperson) getting screwed. Here is how it really works. I think the Invoice on the 14 is 9700 so if they sell it for list 11499 there is 1800 dollars. 20% of 1800 dollars about 380 dollars. Those who paid 10,000 that salesperson made 50 dollars and that's what most deals turn out to be unless you have a hot item like ZX-14 or R1. Now that's not to say that the dealer does not low ball your trade but still there is not much on that end. Knowing what I know if I were to get some of the deals that some of you have gotten I'd buy my salesman a gift cert. In my case I know my salesperson is getting 325-350 dollars so he's on his own. Please respect the salespersons job he/she does alot to earn that 38 dollars after taxes.
Oh yea, most of the owners will work the deals but that does not keep the sales staff happy.
Rob
Rob - I think you're missing my point. Nobody is screwing anybody at my local dealerships that offer good pricing. Their prices are MARKED ON THE BIKES. How can I screw them if their prices are clearly marked and available to all customers?? Sheesh... why do you guys have to paint people who paid slightly less than MSRP as losers?
MSRP is just that... SUGGESTED. That does not mean that a dealer has to charge that price to stay in business, nor does that mean that a sales guy needs to charge MSRP to make commission. These dealers charge what they are comfortable charging - nobody is holding a gun to their head to do it.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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zermatt
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted April 27, 2006 06:22 PM
quote:
I disagree. If a dealer is giving a good price, posting that price could very well drive business to him. If a dealer is "knocking heads off" and charging high, who cares about him anyway?
Exactly!
Fuck that guy. If he feels compelled to charge MSRP while other dealers nearby are posting lower prices, he'll get what he deserves... which is NO business from me or anybody that I know that's in the market to buy a bike. I have two nearby dealers who mark down their prices and post them right on the bikes. THOSE dealers will ALWAYS get my business and referrals!
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted April 27, 2006 06:24 PM
quote:
Matt,
I think a salesperson has one of the worst jobs in the world. OK I'm going to explain to you how much your salesperson made and I'd like you to think about from the other side.
Yes most likely your sales man will make 20% on your sale!!! Sounds good right? Wrong I mean this is the only job that you have to smile when your (the salesperson) getting screwed. Here is how it really works. I think the Invoice on the 14 is 9700 so if they sell it for list 11499 there is 1800 dollars. 20% of 1800 dollars about 380 dollars. Those who paid 10,000 that salesperson made 50 dollars and that's what most deals turn out to be unless you have a hot item like ZX-14 or R1. Now that's not to say that the dealer does not low ball your trade but still there is not much on that end. Knowing what I know if I were to get some of the deals that some of you have gotten I'd buy my salesman a gift cert. In my case I know my salesperson is getting 325-350 dollars so he's on his own. Please respect the salespersons job he/she does alot to earn that 38 dollars after taxes.
Oh yea, most of the owners will work the deals but that does not keep the sales staff happy.
Rob
I can't imagine overpaying just to help someone else make a living. For every extra $1000 I pay, a salesperson might get $200. But I lose $1000! I would have been better off giving him a $200 tip (which I would have never do).
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Nixter
Expert Class
Posts: 152
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posted April 27, 2006 06:37 PM
I sometimes think msrp is fair, I paid msrp for my speed triple - although there is limited access to Triumph dealers locally. My big problem with the greedy dealers is the rediculous amount they tack on for dealer handling/shipping/prep charges. One dealer I went to wanted msrp + $2500 worth of prep. The thing that gets me is how come freight on a 636 may be marked at $400, but a ZX14 is $1400? The crate is damn near the same size, and they are on the same truck!
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2012 ZX14R - Black
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zx61114
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted April 27, 2006 06:44 PM
quote:
Rob
Rob - I think you're missing my point. Nobody is screwing anybody at my local dealerships that offer good pricing. Their prices are MARKED ON THE BIKES. How can I screw them if their prices are clearly marked and available to all customers?? Sheesh... why do you guys have to paint people who paid slightly less than MSRP as losers?
MSRP is just that... SUGGESTED. That does not mean that a dealer has to charge that price to stay in business, nor does that mean that a sales guy needs to charge MSRP to make commission. These dealers charge what they are comfortable charging - nobody is holding a gun to their head to do it.
Agree, and bikes are different from cars. I hate seeing dealers sell this bike for 15,800 as one suggested. I think a fair price is around 10,600-10,800 right now. As sales cool Kawasaki will have incentives of maybe 750-1250 dollars which will help explain this winter's price of 9500 for the 14. You got to get while the getting good. In the case of cars the incentives do nothing for the salesman $ wise all mini-deals (50 dollars). I would say 75% of the people I deal with pay just above invoice or mini deal. Sometimes it takes all day for the decision. Then they get into the credit dept and they can't get the loan. Dude it's a lonely job. Finally in most cases you really can work a fair deal, but market forces are just that. The Civic SI for example is MSRP period. The 2 local dealers near where I work have a added 2000 and 5000 add on for these cars.
In closing My deal of 12,539 with centerstand and shop book will net my sales person about 325 dollars. The guy who got his bike for 10,000 most likely his salesperson made 50 dollars. The dealer never loses period and that was your point and I agree with you. Just speaking from the salespersons point of view.
Rob
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ebonwolf
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted April 27, 2006 06:45 PM
My big problem with the greedy dealers is the rediculous amount they tack on for deal
This is why most salesmen are precieved as crooks, I went into a dealership once and overheard a saleman say to his co-worker that they were "legalized crooks", needless to say I didn't do business with them
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blitzkrieg
Needs a job
Road kill = Free lunch.
Posts: 2044
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posted April 27, 2006 06:46 PM
quote:
In my opinion, posting the pricing is doing a dis-service to your dealer. Generally, the best customers get the best pricing. I am sure that my dealer would not appreciate it if I posted my price. I think the price he provided to me was based the fact that he knows that all accessories and service will be done at his dealership.
If you are not planning to buy product from your dealer down the road and treat the bike as a commodity, post your price - if you value the relationship that you have with your dealer, keep it to yourself.
That is the opinion of a very inexperienced person, Timmy.  Car's or trucks or bikes.
It's a dog eat dog world out there son and your "friend" at the dealer doesn't remember you or give a shit about you an hour after the sale.
Its all about $$$ and moving inventory. Learn this now and save yourself time later.
Go for the best price and don't be afraid to post it. If you think the dealer gave you the "great price" because you are likeable you are mislead
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"BTW....You need to get a girlfriend who's last name isn't .jpg"
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zx61114
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted April 27, 2006 07:03 PM
Fuck that guy. If he feels compelled to charge MSRP while other dealers nearby are posting lower prices, he'll get what he deserves... which is NO business from me or anybody that I know that's in the market to buy a bike. I have two nearby dealers who mark down their prices and post them right on the bikes. THOSE dealers will ALWAYS get my business and referrals!
Hey Matt,
I am 100% free enterprise. Shop it's the American way. Hell seeing I've already given you a lot of information here another little tid bit few people know, In the case of cars: The advertised price of the car includes the dealer fee. Many people overlook this, check out your paper on Saturday it's the law in Fla and is in the fine print most ignore. Not sure about bikes but I'd try to bring it up if there is an advertisement. By the way I do understand where your coming from with dealers who DON'T advertise their bikes. When you ask the price it's higher than MSRP. Man run away from those dealers. It's just not right unless it's the OTD price...Which I've never seen.
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zx61114
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted April 27, 2006 07:15 PM
quote:
This is why most salesmen are precieved as crooks, I went into a dealership once and overheard a saleman say to his co-worker that they were "legalized crooks", needless to say I didn't do business with them
I don't dis-agree. Some of the people I work with will say just about anything to get the deal, but Most are pretty good people. Earlier today I got a call from a salesman who said that he would get me the next 14 for a non-refundable deposit of 5000 dollars. Yea I'm dealing with this guy. Look I'm honest with my people I'll let them go to KBB or edmonds to see what other people are paying. A 3rd party can really put people at ease. Just do your Homework.
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zermatt
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted April 27, 2006 07:30 PM
 Edited By: zermatt on 27 Apr 2006 20:33
The bottom line is that each dealer or sales guy will only accept a deal that he feels is equitable. If he's happy with his asking price and the customer is happy too, then they have a deal. Nobody is screwing anybody. We all make our own decisions and we have to live with them. Nobody can speak for the relationship I have with my dealer but me and him.
This purchase is actually my first with this particular dealer, and I bought there because he's been riding with my "group" every couple of months for a couple of years now and I think he's a good guy. He gave me a good price, sure, but it's also the price that will be marked on these bikes once he has them on his sales floor... just like the discounted price he puts on every other bike in his showroom. I actually made my deal through his GM, since the owner isn't at the dealership on a regular basis.
This dealership also extends a 10-20% discount on nearly all accessories and parts to a club that I'm a member of. He is also trying to corner the market on tire prices for this area, he's VERY aggressive and is in-line with the discount online places. He's got a plan to increase his business, and that means selling things for a little less than a typical dealer with the expectation to make more lifetime customers. I just wish he wasn't an hour drive for me... I've got three other dealers within a 20-25 minute ride.
I got an ok price on my bike, basically $500 below retail. I also know that he would extend this type of discount to anyone that I refer to him, or anyone else that walks in to his dealership looking to buy a bike. Everyone's happy, nobody's feelings got hurt.
Now, if someone here gets a "special deal" because they go "way back" and will buy "lots of stuff" in the future, then so be it. If the dealer does not want that person to repeat their price or refer friends for similar purchases, so be it. That's how they chose to run their business, fine, but I feel that a dealer will be much more sucessful if the offer ALL of their customers a fair price and don't play favorites. Treat everyone well and sell at prices that you can afford, and your business will thrive. That's just the way a free market works...
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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Squareman357
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted April 27, 2006 07:46 PM
I paid $11,749 OTD. $103 was title/plates, there was some nearly $900 worth of taxes, some prep. Bike was $10,450 before anything else. I'm happy and the bike is fuggin AWESOME. Good nuff for me. He also threw in a very nice leather riding jacket with a liner for free (selling for $250), and $100 off my new helmet for buying his first ZX-14. It's all good.
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Keep the shiny side up!
Square
'06 Ebony Metallic ZX-14 - "Delilah"
'02 Silver CBR1100XX - "Stormcloud"
'04 GS500F - "Wife's Bike"
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timmy12r
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted April 27, 2006 07:49 PM
Blitzkrieg - I don't disagree that it is a dog eat dog world in business, and I know that anyone in business is not my friend and is not giving me "deals" because of that.
What I do know, as a small business person, is that all business is relationship based, and another smart business person who is dealing with you bases pricing levels on the big picture and not only the immediate sale.
In Canada anyways (and in my line of business), it is considered inappropriate to disclose pricing. Again, this is only my opinion.
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted April 27, 2006 08:39 PM
My dealer did not pre-order a bike for me. I thought that he did, but he did not want to floor a bike that only I would buy, since I was not 100% (We are in cruiser country)
OTD for me will be around 12,300? I have bought 4 bikes from him in 5 years (no trade ins)
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted April 27, 2006 09:37 PM
...I know my dealers cost for the ZX-14 and I ain't tellin' ...and he's been straight up with me since my first purchase there, so I'm never worried....hell, he even told me to go get the bike somewhere else if he can't beat the price, no biggie....like I said, straight up, no fuss, no muss....and I bet that after all of the hype has died down and winter approaches, the dealers will blow the new left-overs out the door with cash deals that will be way too good to pass up....good thing I still have my trusty 12R to satisfy me until then...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted April 27, 2006 09:44 PM
you can tell us the dealer cost, or we can look it up for a few $$$
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21895
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posted April 27, 2006 10:00 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 27 Apr 2006 23:03
hey blitz... what you say may be true in some towns or big cities, but my personal experience with my dealer has been very different. We have an excellent relationship with them and certainly the local alternatives to them are few and far between. I wouldnt share whatever deal I cobbled together with them because I know that they treat me better than anyone else would.
just my 2$ werth....
but I do know that it is different in many states and cities where you might find a dealer every other block...
it's just not like that where I live.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 28, 2006 04:28 AM
quote:
In Canada anyways (and in my line of business), it is considered inappropriate to disclose pricing.
OMG, you gotta be kidding.... thats the most rediculous thing I have heard in a long time.
If a person or company is embarrased or ashamed of the prices they charge for thier service or products then thier prices are way out of whack and they want to prey on the morons of the world so they can make alot of money off them.
Find another dealer, dont be the fool they need walking in the door to stay in buisness.
Geezzz.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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2toGo
Expert Class
Posts: 165
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posted April 28, 2006 05:11 AM
zx61114,
were in Monroe MI. Getting ours thru a dealer in Toledo OH
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted April 28, 2006 05:19 AM
What's up with pulling your post rob?
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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zx61114
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted April 28, 2006 09:14 AM
Matt,
I was in the process of doing a little cut and paste and accidently erased it. My comment was thinking that American dealers could do so much better with a fair pricing vs, MSRP, this really explains why everyone is paying a different price. I'm calling it as I see it so here goes.
When you go to Wal-mart in Seattle or Miami the cost difference is very little, yet in the motorcycle/Car arena we are led to believe we have to bargin. With your buggy full of food and the clerk says that will be 157 dollars do you offer 140? No!!! If Kawasaki says fair pricing 10,199 for each ZX-14 bike. No deals well I think it would be better all the way around. Fair pricing works well for Wal-mart, Target and Sears why not the auto/motorcycle ind. Just an opinion.
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted April 28, 2006 10:00 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 28 Apr 2006 11:08
Fair pricing works well for them because they are selling commodities. Lucky for us, cars, trucks, motorcycles, RV's, houses, etc, are not comodities... yet. Until that day when all bikes are the same and there is a dealer on every corner trying to sell me the same thing, for a cut-throat price (like Wal-Mart, Target and Sears to do eachother), I will continue to expect flexibility in pricing. The simple fact that almost ALL dealerships will negotiate on pricing proves the point that I am not in the wrong.
To prove my point, just look at any medium-sized town where a Wal-Mart has moved in and commoditized EVERYTHING that any person could ever need to buy at a grocery, hardware, clothing, sports, hunting, vehicle care, bicycle, lawn & garden, etc, store. Every other little mom and pop store that used to be able to set their own pricing based on their individual overhead was forced to close. When all shopping becomes a commodity, everyone loses - except Wal-Mart, but they are huge and they can make up their lower profits with volume. Until this happens with motorcycle dealerships, each dealer can charge what they want, not a price-fixed number, in order to win business. There is enough of a margin for dealerships to do it this way - plain and simple.
Same here - just an opinion. But my opinion is backed up by fact that many dealerships already operate this way. It's the dealerships that force people to play this game, not the consumers. Take a look at dealerships that tried the "no dicker sticker" crap a few years ago, then tossed it out the window. It didn't work because the dealer down the street would still negotiate with people who wanted a better "deal". The market controls how this game is played, not the manufacturers or dealerships.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 28, 2006 10:20 AM
Saturn tried that. The problem is all wal-marts are wal-marts. Same company. Car and bike dealers are all independently owned buisnesses. A better comparison would be buying a pencil at wal-mart vs buying a pencil at sears. If there both the same pencil from the same manufacturer anf one is $1 and one is $2 you have a choice to make.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted April 28, 2006 10:27 AM
Edited By: TeamSpeed on 28 Apr 2006 11:31
Just wait until Walmart gets into the vehicle business, just a matter of time, they are getting into the banking institution, along with everything else they are into (Gas, Groceries, Oil Changes, Tires, etc). Walmart will combine everything they have today with a future of selling vehicles to create a complete vehicle package, from financing to lifetime vehicle normal maintenance, good at any Walmart no matter where you originally purchased the vehicle...
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/Betterbanking/P109171.asp
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zx61114
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted April 28, 2006 10:36 AM
Gentleman I could not have said it better. Nature of the beast sort-a speak and I don't think it will ever change. May I add you all are pretty sharp Just hope maybe I said something you did not know.
Rob
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