Drowland
Zone Head
Posts: 733
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posted March 19, 2006 06:43 AM
Various in performance between same model bikes
I would like to see some responses from crediable sources. People that know what they are talking about... Thanks
Numerous times I see the same type motorcycles (same year, same model) dyno but out various horespower numbers on the dyno. I know that several factors that you have to take into considerations including, tire pressure, filter, the way its strap.. Not talking about all this stuff. Talking about same day, same dyno same everything...
I Know there are so many variables including cam timing and etc.. I do know that on the ZX10r that this bike does have adjustable camshafts and actually you have to put the cams into the adjustable slots to adjust them.. I do know that it takes some serious time and trouble to get these bike into top dead center.. And then set them.. You know when these bikes are on the assembly line very unlikley all are the set the same way.. I know break in has a small difference in output as well.. The question is.......
What other things that can have a large various in power output among the same motorcycles?
   
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Jason9R
Novice Class
Posts: 47
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posted March 19, 2006 08:20 AM
Good question. Maybe fuel octane levels and chain condition??
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted March 19, 2006 08:34 AM
If you want instant HorsePower than get, VP-mr9 race fuel, it's good for 5hp sometimes more...
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted March 19, 2006 08:39 AM
How could fuel give more HP?
I think it will only let you compress the mixture more (higher octane)
and that might give you more power.
Are you changing the chemical construct of the fuel
and adjusting or even rebuilding your engine accordingly
???
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dubious
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posted March 19, 2006 08:42 AM
 Edited By: dubious on 19 Mar 2006 08:44
Fuel:
Distillation curve,
Oxygenated fuel.
Octane
Dyno.
Barometric pressure
Altitude
Miles on the dyno (bearing drag)
Dyno calibration
all the other things you mentioned.
Condition of the bike.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Drowland
Zone Head
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posted March 19, 2006 08:48 AM
Damn dudes.. Not talkikng about other varialbles! Talking bike to bike... Differences of power.. Every bike will differ in horespower output some more than others if you ever road the same bike to bike sometimes you can notice big difference in power... What can all the variables be besides cam timing etc.... ?///
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smokinZX14
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posted March 19, 2006 09:10 AM
True 20 of the same bikes same day will be a little different in hp out put..... Ricky G said as much for the zx14 171 to 175 hp same day testing ... Me i'm not worried about 4 hp difference.......I can and have built many 500 cid motors and some will have just a bit more hp...........Look at at prostock cars .. Warren Johnson( one of the best) will see 5 to 10 hp on his motors... These motors are built to much better spec than any show room motorcycle will ever be ... Makes no sence to worry about it seeing that the rider will make the difference on the track or street ... same day and same dyno my zx10 made 147 hp , my 3 friends on there Gixxer made 152 155 and 158 ...I still beat them by four bikes from a roll on race .. don't worry be happy ...........
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted March 19, 2006 10:09 AM
quote:
Fuel:
Oxygenated fuel.
Huh? Really?
URL, please!
(tetra-nitro-methanol - yeah!)
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Jason9R
Novice Class
Posts: 47
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posted March 19, 2006 10:48 AM
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/
Quote Drowland
"Damn dudes.. Not talkikng about other varialbles!"..."What can all the variables be besides cam timing etc.... ?/// "
??
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Drowland
Zone Head
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posted March 19, 2006 10:52 AM
Did you boys ride the short bus???
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dubious
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posted March 19, 2006 11:41 AM
quote:
Damn dudes.. Not talkikng about other varialbles! Talking bike to bike... Differences of power.. Every bike will differ in horespower output some more than others if you ever road the same bike to bike sometimes you can notice big difference in power... What can all the variables be besides cam timing etc.... ?///
Piston/ wall clearances, crank bearing clearances, casting flaws in the head.
Most all machining clearances, casting flaws, and torque applied to assemblies, causing distortion, ignition pickup (for timing), cam timing. etc.
My Cr500 had such poor casting flaws, and ports cut out of spec, I Imagine I would have picked up 5 HP gettin it all right.
I've owned 8 CR500's, and worked on over 20 different engines, only 3 had exact port timing , and still the port transitions, and casdting flaws were really poor!
Its all mass produced, get it bluprinted. You'll likely havve the strongest stock bike running!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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FasterThanStink
Pro
Posts: 1218
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posted March 19, 2006 11:43 AM
Production tolerances can add up in a positive or a negative manner. All mass produced items vary slightly no matter how hard the manufacturer tries to keep them the same. Tools wear, parts have minute variances etc. All added up it simply means some bikes will make a little more power, some a little less.
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Speed has never killed anyone,
suddenly becoming stationary...
That's what gets you.
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zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
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posted March 19, 2006 11:44 AM
it's for sure YOU were in the back of the short bus.....blueprint the motherfucker and shut up already.
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Drowland
Zone Head
Posts: 733
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posted March 19, 2006 05:02 PM
Arn't you just a asshole! Sounds like something I would say..........
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted March 19, 2006 05:18 PM
VPN...Alot of the Roadracers and DragRacers riding a stock motor bike use VP race fuel - mr9, U4...Turbo guys use c16 and guys with motors use mrxo1...
Scroll down to find above mentioned gas...
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html#leaded
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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brain
Expert Class
Posts: 136
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posted March 19, 2006 06:36 PM
Faster than Stink said
Production tolerances can add up in a positive or a negative manner. All mass produced items vary slightly no matter how hard the manufacturer tries to keep them the same. Tools wear, parts have minute variances etc. All added up it simply means some bikes will make a little more power, some a little less.
____________..When someone says you got a good one,that is what they are talking about.Cutting tools when fresh will be more precise resulting in more hp.As they are used they become less precise causing less hp
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gunner
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posted March 19, 2006 09:21 PM
It's everything more than any one thing. That's why Blueprinting to factory specs will produce fairly even results between same make and model. The ringers that the factories put out sometimes are only Blueprinted motors. So if you want yur own RINGER.........Blueprint it and be done. You can always say it's still stock because it is.
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speedgene
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posted March 19, 2006 11:37 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 19 Mar 2006 23:52
Drowland, it depends on ALL parts installed. I knew a guy who would assemble bikes out of the crate, test ride them, and find the quickest one of that model to buy. He raced it box stock, and blew away everyone with it. Call it friction, or restriction between parts?
I know a close friend who's dad had a gas station in Pasadena back in the Beach Boy days. Guys were coming around with 283 V8's on the Blvd. When the kid was old enough to drive, his dad worked on a straight 6 '56 Chevy post. Dad warmed it over a little, and his son cleaned house. Dad set the crank bearings up a little loose. A few other tricks of that day, and the power to weight ratio is what won many street races. The car was both lighter, and the engine had less friction...it spun up the rpm's faster.
Call it a fluctuating bit cutter size according to room temperature changes? I do not have a clue why same model bikes can have more HP than the same bike right behind it following it off the assembly line? Take any "new" bike of the same year, and model... you will find they are as different as a snow flake. Each one has a personality all it's own. Very strange when you think each individual part for that model will fit exactly the same on every last bike made.
Bottom line... it's all how the that engine is assembled. It is an out and out crap shoot pulling parts from a bin, then come up with an engine that has more power than another. What (loose or close to blueprinted) parts if any, are in that bike, I don't know? Your guess is as good as mine to find out which one/many parts made more HP? There sure will be a few 14's that are higher than average. Only way I can see this HP increase happening between same engines is the parts are within spec, but are "loose." A seat of the pants ride can tell you a lot between each bike of the same model.
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zerMATT
Pro
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posted March 20, 2006 06:07 AM
Can someone post a really bried description of what "blueprinting" means for those of us thst do not build engines? I've heard the term, as well as "blueprinted and balanced" used for years, but never asked exactly what it means. Balancing makes sense (spin-balance the crank, make sure all of the rods/pistons/assy gear are equal to eachother, etc - I assume), but what's blueprinting?
Thanks 
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Jason9R
Novice Class
Posts: 47
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posted March 20, 2006 06:40 AM
quote
Blueprinting is the exact science of engine rebuilding. The careful measuring, fitting, and balancing done during the blueprinting process creates an engine that returns improved performance, fuel economy, and dependability. The engine becomes, in essence, brand new.
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speedgene
Zone Head
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posted March 20, 2006 10:56 AM
A lot of work goes into blueprinting an engine like Jason9R stated. Shims will need adjusting to stay within "blueprint." Measuring the crank parts, piston to wall clearances, ring end gap... the list extends further along the HP food chain. Every part must be checked off to achieve a "blueprinted" state. Every part has a "running clearance" taken off the factory blueprints of an engine design. Most of these measurements can be located in a factory shop manual.
As stated above, adjusting the shims would be part of "blueprinting." Let's say as an example the shims will work within "book" range from 1 to 10. Zero (0) being a tight valve, and 11 being valve clatter. These are the numbers the engineers came up with to make an engine perform at max-efficiency. I know that setting the shims at "5" is the measurement I want to achieve if I want my engine to be "blueprinted" to Peak-Efficiency! I want middle (book) measurements if I want blueprint specifications.
Open each chapter related to the engine. Find the middle of the "serviceable limit" range of each part. In general, and basically speaking... achieve this measurement for each and every part, and you have in a sense, blueprinted the engine.
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dubious
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posted March 20, 2006 01:10 PM
As Jason and Speedgene have said, also valve springs, free length, compressed length, free tension compressed tension, valve guide tolerances, a big one mentioned already is ring end gap, and piston to wall clearances.
A loose racing engine sometimes will actually burn oil (not much but some) when decellerating, rings are kept tight by 2 means, combustion pressure, and ring (spring) pressure.
A loose ring gap, and loose piston to wall clearance will not provide tight enough pressure on the cylinder wall, and when the motor decellerates, there is little combustion pressure, thereby allowing oil to pass from the crankcase into the combustion chamber!
Frictional losses, attributed to machining tolerances, as well as casting flaws causing flow deficiencies, improper torque values, and quality control are major reasons for differences in production engines!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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