VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted September 05, 2006 11:36 AM
quote:
How is looking for the most torque out of your $11000 machine somehow related to having a small penis?
Isn't that why people buy the 14? To have the fastest, quickest, most powerful stock motorcycle available (for under $15000, at least).
If you use that logic, ALL OF YOU have small penises.
(I don't have a 14. But I want one; therefore, I have small penis envy.)
After accepting all those penis enlargements offers from the web
I was facing a bad-bad problem - which finally seem to be solved:
"All" I need is A ZX-14 will secondary valves removed and TRE
and Turbo and wet Nitrous and some sprockets changes
and longer, much longer wheelbase to survive
Therefore my penis will finally shrunk back about normal size
so that I can FIT THE DARN THING IN !!!!!
  
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted September 05, 2006 11:37 AM
no.... you dont need the 2ndaries removed and a TRE...
apparently you cant READ.
BUY A SHIRT.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted September 05, 2006 12:56 PM
Correct, TRE is for me and the bike needs full exhaust system & PC III
Does the shirt say GTR-1400 ??!
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted September 05, 2006 01:05 PM
One thing you forgot to test is just mapping the stock bike
What about full exthaust and then test again comparing
mapped, mapped+TRE, mapped+removed 2ndaries
???!
I can easily wait one full month for this
I think Brock want's to sell pipes
What about pipes that are street legal, but still gives some power?
I have now on my Bandit street legal exthaus
Laser DuoTech (which you can turn into a reac-pipe by changing the inner pipe)
Since there's no FI, the needles have been adjusted
and it's tuned to a quite rich mixture
I'm gonna put a free-flow filter to get the mixture slighly leaner
This is all practising to get some hold on the tuning
before getting the GTR-1400
Ofcourse I let a PCIII pro tuner to do the job
I guess I'm getting a LeoVince aluminium street legal exthaust (cheap)
or perhaps a Micron slip-on ??
BUT
I certainly will break the bike in
without any enhancements
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted September 05, 2006 10:59 PM
Yawn....
here we go again.
Cheap cheap cheap....
I think I hear a bird or somethin in here
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blackmore
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
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posted September 11, 2006 02:00 AM
 Edited By: blackmore on 11 Sep 2006 03:45
What a great job!!! I have just one question.
We have been told in Europe that the only gear with no restrictions at all is the 5º gear, as the 6th is restricted going only to 10.000 RPM. The reason not to pass 300 KM/H
Installing the TRE thing will make the bike going only to 10.000 RPM in any gear?
cheers
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted September 12, 2006 11:36 PM
Dubious wrote:
Yawn....
here we go again.
Cheap cheap cheap....
I think I hear a bird or somethin in here
------
You should take a look at the bike prices here in Finland
They are about double so you just have to save on something
BTW:
the free-flow filter didn't help :-(
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted September 13, 2006 10:00 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 13 Sep 2006 23:01
VPN.... straight up.. you're one cheap mo-fo.... I dont care how much a bike costs in Finland... we're not charging for shirts in Euros. Buying a shirt does nothing but support the community... the same one you sponge free information off of...
Besides... you;re such a tightwad that a single pint or two of beer in Finland probably costs more than a custom made shirt shipped to your doorstep 
- take that, el-cheapo! 
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted September 14, 2006 08:28 PM
LOL
LOL
LOL
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted September 15, 2006 08:05 PM
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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Editor
Administrator
Posts: 914
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posted September 20, 2006 11:13 AM
Edited By: Editor on 20 Sep 2006 12:16
UPDATE SEPTEMBER 20, 2006
By Brock Davidson
It's amazing the perspective a little extra time gives a person...
I hate to give anyone inaccurate advice, but I believe I may have jumped the gun a bit in regard to some areas involving removing the secondary throttle plates (or "flies" as they have become known to the Internet crowd) for STREET use in Bikeland's Low End Performance Gains article.
I'm not making excuses, please allow me to explain:
Most of my seat time on any bike these days is on the dyno and drag strip as 'pleasure riding' usually does not get penciled into my busy schedule. The day I completed the 'no-secondary throttle plates' dyno sessions, I decided to take my 14 out for a brief ride to get a seat-of-the-pants feel for this new configuration. Quite simply, I rolled the bike off of the dyno, put on my helmet and jacket and headed for the closest road that would allow me to twist the gas a bit. I had just witnessed the bike do things on the dyno, like stalling, bucking, jumping, which surely biased my judgment, AND as luck would have it my chosen test road also had expansion joints!
Armed with straight MR9 and no air cleaner, while personally sporting an exhausted attitude about what I just felt and witnessed on the dyno from my new favorite ride, I headed out. Every time I crossed an expansion joint, my head snapped back and my smooth powerful ZX-14 lunged forward making it feel like a jerky mess. In brief words, I liked the added power but I thought the drivability sucked.
Since the initial story, I have ridden around 200 miles on the street without the secondary plates (FYI: that is a bunch of street miles for me!) I typically leave my 'no secondaries' track map in the Power Commander. This is the exact map Sonny used to run 9.15 (with no air cleaner and MR9 fuel during testing.) I like to keep the bike race ready just in case I get a chance to break away and head to the drag strip, so for the most part, I leave the race map in and the flies out. FYI: I install my air cleaner, pump gas and the appropriate matching map before heading out for longer street rides. I DO NOT recommend that anyone ever ride on the street without the air cleaner installed. Serious engine damage can result in a hurry! Of course with the air cleaner and pump gas, the bike is down about 10 HP average, but it is still a COMPLETE JOY to ride and FAST AS HELL!
When riding the bike without the secondary plates, the throttle response and drivability is PERFECT on any normal road. The only ill affect I have noticed is an occasional deceleration pop from the exhaust while backing off of the gas during shifts. I have my emission system blocked so I'm sure the pop is the result is a simple lean or rich condition which may or may not be curable after disabling a factory control mechanism? For now, I will have to live with it. My data logger will be on the bike soon so I will know more about the A/F ratio while the bike moving which should help me find a direction toward any potential cure. In my opinion, deceleration pop is merely a nuisance, and I have never witnessed any damaging affects to any bike I have ever owned as a result of it.
The throttle response is MUCH smoother (and more tame) with pump gas than when using MR9 with the air cleaner removed. However, once I re-trained myself to modulate the throttle gently enough to control the extra low-end power, my 'flyless' 14 is every bit as smooth as any Busa I have ever mapped.
The ZX-14 engine makes so much torque that the lower rev/wide open throttle position stalls that plagued me on the dyno DID NOT OCCUR on the street. You would have to be a horrible rider to even get in a position to bog the bike to the point of shut off on the street as the low end grunt of the 14 just won't allow a competent rider to screw up so badly.
Further reports from some of our street riders (using our street maps) have confirmed my own findings that the fuel mileage did not suffer as a result of removing the secondaries; in fact, some actually reported an INCREASE in miles per gallon! This does correspond somewhat to my dyno results because, yet again, the 14 is so powerful that low RPM rides at moderate throttle openings do not occur much during normal use. This allows the bike to function at an area of the factory mapping which does not require a significant amount of additional fuel with the flies out compared to having the flies installed.
I still believe that this modification is not for all riders, and that a considerable mechanical aptitude must be present to perform this alteration correctly. I also believe that the 'no secondary' configuration is a bit rowdy for most riders (who do not possess above average riding skills at the drag strip) with a stock wheelbase ZX-14. Of course, this modification is perfect for 14's with lengthened swingarms and street squids with a passion for wheelies! I personally have struggled with the abrupt power delivery, but a (still not healed) wrist fracture has delayed my riding practice throughout the summer.
I stand firm with the rest of the results from the first 'no flies' article.
That being said, I now "officially" stand corrected on my 'no flies' stance for street use and must (of course) admit to being a VERY happy member of the "need to compensate" club!
Good Luck and GO FAST!
Brock
P. S. There have been questions posed of late on the effects of adding the TRE and removing the flies in conjunction with the stock exhaust system. I am a racer who makes his living in the aftermarket performance business. No racer who cares about their personal reputation at all would show up at a closed course timed event with a bike which is not set up to go as fast as possible. That's why we call it a RACE track. My job and passion is to go fast and pass my knowledge on to my customers and friends for further use against "non" or "soon to be, as a result of" customers/friends. I will not be testing these modifications on a factory strangled machine anytime soon, as I keep myself EXTREMELY busy designing and testing new products to make the fastest sport bikes even faster. I'm sure someone else has the time and would be glad to post their results in the forum!
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blackmore
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
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posted September 20, 2006 11:53 PM
Have the american ZR-14 a rev limitation to 10.000 rpm as the european has?
I wonder what the TRE will do if it is fixed to 5º gear istead of 6º gear
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GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted September 21, 2006 01:54 AM
Once again Brock I'm floored by your complete honesty!!!!!! Hell we all make mistakes but only the BIGGER man admits it. 
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted September 21, 2006 06:35 AM
Bravo..............and welcome to our world of the street beast :-)
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted September 21, 2006 01:09 PM
Edited By: ninja12 on 21 Sep 2006 14:09
quote:
Once again Brock I'm floored by your complete honesty!!!!!! Hell we all make mistakes but only the BIGGER man admits it.
+1
Don't see that often in this industry.
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htosado
Zone Head
Posts: 949
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posted September 21, 2006 01:39 PM
quote:
quote:
Once again Brock I'm floored by your complete honesty!!!!!! Hell we all make mistakes but only the BIGGER man admits it.
+1
Don't see that often in this industry.
+2
Much respect!!!!!!!!
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted September 25, 2006 12:53 PM
quote:
VPN.... straight up.. you're one cheap mo-fo.... I dont care how much a bike costs in Finland... we're not charging for shirts in Euros. Buying a shirt does nothing but support the community... the same one you sponge free information off of...
Besides... you;re such a tightwad that a single pint or two of beer in Finland probably costs more than a custom made shirt shipped to your doorstep
- take that, el-cheapo!
1st: I don't drink at all
2nd I couldn't afford - there is tax on almost everyhing extra - you don't know our country
3rd I think I'm going back to Suzuki groups - I'm insulted here frequently
BYE
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted September 25, 2006 01:07 PM
quote:
3rd I think I'm going back to Suzuki groups - I'm insulted here frequently
BYE
THat's because yer fuckin CHEAP
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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zx14_1965
Zone Head
Posts: 505
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posted September 26, 2006 11:34 AM
Edited By: zx14_1965 on 26 Sep 2006 12:35
Ivans TRE and PCIII Ordered
Just ordered the two items and should have it on my door step by the end of the week.
Bought it through MotoFuel. They will preload a map for Yosh full exhaust, TRE and modified air filter (stock mesh filter removed).
I'll put it on the dyno upon installing them to see how close their loaded map is.
Will post before and after results soon for all to see.
Will never think about removing the secondaries, why screw up a good thing....low end driveability. I rode a 14 with flies out and it sucked down below.
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jimmiedice
Expert Class
Posts: 105
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posted September 28, 2006 12:40 AM
Why dont you yank the flies out. Tre's are a waste of money.You got a yosh too? Man dont you read anything? What a waste of time .Should have left it stock.
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zx14_1965
Zone Head
Posts: 505
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posted September 28, 2006 05:32 AM
quote:
Why dont you yank the flies out. Tre's are a waste of money.You got a yosh too? Man dont you read anything? What a waste of time .Should have left it stock.
Yank Flies out? No way! 
It's funny how most think the flies out is the only way to go. It's just another option. Personally, I like what the TRE does and I don't have to worry about voiding my warranty by jerkin' parts off just to save a buck. Flies in and Tre for me and I'm stickin' by it.
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zx14_1965
Zone Head
Posts: 505
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posted September 28, 2006 10:33 AM
Edited By: zx14_1965 on 28 Sep 2006 11:34
quote:
You got a yosh too? Man dont you read anything? What a waste of time .Should have left it stock.
Whatever...what mods you running hot dog? Let me see if I can slam your choice of mods and hurt your feelings. If your setup yields more than 7-10hp than my route then I'll kneel to you almighty one of mod knowlege. 
You're funny :milk
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted September 28, 2006 05:54 PM
Ivan's Yosh numbers are WITH the flies out. 180.7 HP/ 108.5 TQ.
Brock's Gen3 numbers with flies out (pump gas and AC in) 184.9 HP/ 109.7
using lower number result chart from Dragbike.com - not Bikeland chart
Could one expect the Yosh numbers to be the same with the flies IN or OUT? If so, then why not show such a chart? And where's the A/F charts?
ZX14_1965, I have no problem with you leaving your flies in, using a TRE or selcting a Yosh pipe. It's just that if you think a "Flies in, TRE installed, PCIII mapped and Yosh exhast" ZX-14 will be within 7HP of a "Flies out, no TRE, PCIII mapped and Gen3 exhaust" ZX-14 bike, there one pipe you'll need to be stepping away from and it has nothing to do with "exhaust".
If the Yosh bike with the flies OUT is already over 4HP down, then with the flies still in, it can not be expected to be within 7HP of a Gen3 bike with the flies out. If it is even close, it will be running so lean that the bike wouldn't last 500 miles.
Remember ZX14_1965, when post YOUR (not Ivan's) charts to do the following to be "fair and balanced":
1. Use STD correction (since it is higher than SAE).
2. Use #3 smoothing and it MUST be shown on the chart.
3. Post the complete chart (no zooming).
4. Include the A/F ratio.
I'm looking forward to ZX14_1965 settling this once and for all.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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zx14_1965
Zone Head
Posts: 505
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posted September 28, 2006 06:42 PM
Edited By: zx14_1965 on 28 Sep 2006 19:46
quote:
Ivan's Yosh numbers are WITH the flies out. 180.7 HP/ 108.5 TQ.
Brock's Gen3 numbers with flies out (pump gas and AC in) 184.9 HP/ 109.7
using lower number result chart from Dragbike.com - not Bikeland chart
Could one expect the Yosh numbers to be the same with the flies IN or OUT? If so, then why not show such a chart? And where's the A/F charts?
ZX14_1965, I have no problem with you leaving your flies in, using a TRE or selcting a Yosh pipe. It's just that if you think a "Flies in, TRE installed, PCIII mapped and Yosh exhast" ZX-14 will be within 7HP of a "Flies out, no TRE, PCIII mapped and Gen3 exhaust" ZX-14 bike, there one pipe you'll need to be stepping away from and it has nothing to do with "exhaust".
If the Yosh bike with the flies OUT is already over 4HP down, then with the flies still in, it can not be expected to be within 7HP of a Gen3 bike with the flies out. If it is even close, it will be running so lean that the bike wouldn't last 500 miles.
Remember ZX14_1965, when post YOUR (not Ivan's) charts to do the following to be "fair and balanced":
1. Use STD correction (since it is higher than SAE).
2. Use #3 smoothing and it MUST be shown on the chart.
3. Post the complete chart (no zooming).
4. Include the A/F ratio.
I'm looking forward to ZX14_1965 settling this once and for all.
Dude! Chill! I'm not selling nothing, just mentioning my intended route. I'll be happy with the resulting outcome.
I'm not thinking my route is the best and nor am I saying anything negative about the other available mod options. Don't care about other exhaust systems out there either, just my Yosh since that's whats on my bike.
On another note, what one Dyno shows for numbers can't be fairly assessed unless all these mods and different exhaust configurations are done on the same dyno under similar conditions....and that's a fact. Dyno numbers WILL vary 2-7hp based on every environmental factor, dyno operator and dyno model. Example: My ZRX1200 was dynoed at 170RWHP on one dyno and 27 miles away on the same model dyno at 165RWHP the very next day. Another dyno run a week later at a another dyno, same dyno model it read 168.
As for showing my dyno charts, I'll show what the dyno operator has his machine to reflect but I will make an effort to ask for your requested format.
My experience has taught me not to get hung up on the final dyno number. For a fair assessment, one must track hp increase from base line stock, to stage II, stage III etc and doing it on the same dyno. My ZRX gained 20 hp with a jet kit and full exhaust. I've tested 6 different exhaust systems and they were all within 2-4 hp difference and torque readings varied in the power band from 4-2-1 and 4-1 setups. Don't see why the 14 would be any different.
So with that said, I say similar mods with different pipes will only vary 2-4hp in a fair assesment on the same dyno. So, track your overall gain from baseline stock and compare each others' hp gains that way. I guarantee you we'll all be in the same ball park as it relates to overall gains when comparing similar mods.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted September 28, 2006 08:12 PM
I've seen your Yosh and I agree with many in saying that it is one of the best looking pipes I've seen on a 14.
Just a couple of points of "clarification" on my statements...
1. Never implied your were selling anything.
2. Showed what I thought was "respect" for your choice of modifications by saying, "I have no problem with..."
3. My point of contention was in your comparing two bikes that did NOT have similar mods and claiming the performance results would be similar. (RE: your last sentence in your earlier post)
4. No biggie on posting your charts to "my standards", 'cuz you don't owe me (or anybody else here) anything. I would suggest you take a floppy disk or blank CD for the dyno operator to store your runs on (call first and find out which media to bring). That way, you can analyze your runs at your leisure using Dynojet's viewer.
I do not question you view of the minor performance differences between various name brand exhaust systems on similarly modified bikes when properly mapped .
Utilizing a "generic" map for a certain pipe would not apply, due to the fact that the engines vary too much from bike to bike. I learned that when using a map from a fellow board member who's bike was set up identical to mine and ridden in a similar fashion. Break in and mileage were also very similar.
His A/F ratio was perfect and was putting out close to 190HP & over 100 ft/lbs. Using the same map made my bike run way too rich. Though my torque was close to his (97.35), my HP was way down (176.59). It turned out that running richer seems to improve torque while running lean can improve HP numbers.
That run was with 16K on the odo. With 41K on the odo and finally getting a custom map made, the final numbers were 182.27 HP/ 94.76 ft/lbs. That was with a aftermarket filter, timing advanced 2 degrees and Muzzy pipe (and a PCIII, of course).
Conditions, operator and such factors are commonly accepted as "variables". Some of my lessons learned of what else can effect dyno numbers were covered in this thread back in May '03...
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=7464
I will never claim to know it all. My dyno questions in that thread proves that. To further prove that fact, just read my posts about putting a 7R swingarm on a 12R (yes, I actually did it). NO, just read ANY of my posts, if reeading them don't put you to sleep first.
I'm not flaming you. I was just questioning your comparison made in your last sentence.
FYI - I don't even own a 14. I own a '04 10R and once owned a '00 12R (and various other bikes)
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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