EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
|
posted July 05, 2006 01:21 PM
Good point 14b---I remember that posting now but cannot find it. It did show (the bike with stock pipes) running fine af ratios. I would like to see that posting again.
   
|
14black
Expert Class
Posts: 280
|
posted July 05, 2006 01:24 PM
 Edited By: 14black on 5 Jul 2006 14:24
quote:
Good point 14b---I remember that posting now but cannot find it. It did show (the bike with stock pipes) running fine af ratios. I would like to see that posting again.
Yeah, I looked for it too, but couldn't find it. Isn't it true that Brock never ran A/F ratios with a completely stock ZX sans the flies??? That's the info that many of us would like to see...
|
3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
|
posted July 05, 2006 07:10 PM
I believe this is the post you are talking about... I remember reading this thinking that I was going to do this mod... I think I will wait until I get more miles on it to make sure that no other issues of warranty come up and then I screw mysefl over. I figure this will give time for those people that took out the plates without a PC to see if they burn up their engine. Anyway... this is the post that I read that seemed to sound "promising"....
Ojref
Novice Class
Posts: 49
posted June 10, 2006 04:31 PM Edited By: Ojref on 10 Jun 2006 16:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks FBA, now to get it tuned.. All the talk about running lean is keeping her in the garage for the moment. have ant pics of the polished Ti on the 10r?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I removed my plates today, and took a little different approach to the whole "lean" issue.
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world of tuning, especialy concerning forced induction, but not a lot of FI bike tuning experience, so I leaned a little on Metric Cycles and Park 10 CBR Performance. Modern sportbikes have a secondary air system on them for air-exhaust gas injecton, which is supposed to lower NO polution and burn off extra HC's in the stream. In order to run a accurate AFR test, this system should be disabled. I do not believe that Ivan or Brock thought to disable this system, however today we did. We also set up to measure EGT's before and after the butterfly valves were removed.
2500-6000 RPM roll on, outside temp = 98F, bike coolant = 198F
With valves = 1380F AFR = 13.1
Without = 1378F AFR = 13.2
Crusing, 3.2K in 6th (dyno loaded to simulate 70mph)
With valves = 1402F AFR = 15.8
Without = 1406F AFR = 15.8
Tip in at 3.2K showed an immediate surge in fuel to 12.8 then smoothed back out again, Seems typical of a modern FI "run-lean" cruising habits of an automotive engine application with cats.
So, what's the issue? No idea. All I can tell you is the HP and TQ increased about 10 HP and 22 FT pounds with the plates removed, but the AFR's at WOT seemed the same in both cases.
Volumetrics of the engine won't change with the plates removed. There is still the same amount of backpressure from the exhaust and airflow from the inlet as before, provided that you don't change anything from stock. We found no signs of detonation. Keep in mind that we were using 93 octane fuel, which in itself is a nice safeguard on an engine tuned for 90-89 octane.
I wouldn't worry about engine damage when removing the plates, however a tune should help with the timing advance and LFT and SFT tables down low, which are lacking gears 1-4.
____________
2006 Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja, Pornstar Nipple Red
1997 Honda CBR 1100XX
2002 Ford Lightning (currently building up GT-40 motor, also to be Whipplecharged) 607HP 754 TQ with/Magnum Powers blower
|
EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
|
posted July 06, 2006 04:17 AM
That was it------Thanks. Summary, I guess, is that as long as you leave the bike stock, plate removal works fine. My bike certainly proves that. Anyway, I have the DYNOJET Power Comander installed now and will be taking it over to be mapped this morning. I will try to post graphs of beore and after. The Commander came with a map that removed a lot of fuel everywhere. I zeroed everything out so we can get a base of what it iis before mapping.
|
zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
|
posted August 24, 2006 07:04 AM
Why did this get stickied all-of-a-sudden? Might it be because everyone on the "other" board thinks that the TRE is an amazing magical device that unlocks the true potential of the 14? Might this be their warning that they are gonna bunn a hole in the tops of their pistons one of these days?
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
|
northmedic
Expert Class
Posts: 384
|
posted August 24, 2006 02:08 PM
so the just is pure stock you can pull that flies with out a pc? or map
____________
I,ll be right back
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted August 25, 2006 11:04 AM
fact
the 14 is neutered the first 4 gears
kind of like a traction control(stupid control)
2nd
there is much speculation
about 6th gear also................the gentlemans agreement 186mph max
we all know thats not exact
some will run better
some less
yet the gear indicator always showing 6th gear
& of couurse there could be proprietary mojo going on with ivans TRE
there is still a good chance much has been left on the table
a replacement AEM ecu/ignitor "superbox"
could conceivably release all the 14's demons
$$$$$$$$$$
already has been noted
significantly quicker ET"s in the 1/4
trap speeds are not significantly better
factory engineers are devious
corporate politics intricate
good luck
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
S A Kruz
Expert Class
Posts: 127
|
posted August 25, 2006 12:00 PM
Hi, I'm from that "other board" and have the TRE sans PC3. I can tell you that it kicks ass. In a low gear, low rpm rollon, my bike with TRE ran neck and neck in four rollon tests with a highly modified ZX-14 with plates removed. Virtually no difference in low end torque. Now the A/F issue is still up in the air. Schnitz RAcing stands behind the TRE and says its safe to use in a stock ZX-14 without remapping/PC3. They claim that any leaness is short duration and at low enough power not to cause any problems with the engine. They are very adamant about this. All this is very confusing.
Kruz
|
halvefast
Zone Head
Posts: 806
|
posted August 25, 2006 12:38 PM
Think it through, all it is doing is tricking the bike to believe it is in 6th all the time, do you think Kaw would chance it going lean ever? The air sensors should compensate for the air flow changes.
I can't see how leaving the bike in 6th could hurt it, people have done runs on dynos at these speeds and RPM ranges to prove no lean condition.
____________
Texas Mile 200.256mph - Oct. 2007 (Update 202.577mph Oct 2008) NOS assisted
ECTA Ohio Mile 195.132mph
TexasMile 2012 199.9 mph all motor!
Streetriders Shootout 2008 series Pro/ET Champ!
Streetriders Shootout 2007 Series Pro/ET Runner-up!
|
S A Kruz
Expert Class
Posts: 127
|
posted August 25, 2006 01:10 PM
quote:
Think it through, all it is doing is tricking the bike to believe it is in 6th all the time, do you think Kaw would chance it going lean ever? The air sensors should compensate for the air flow changes.
I can't see how leaving the bike in 6th could hurt it, people have done runs on dynos at these speeds and RPM ranges to prove no lean condition.
On alogic basis, I am in total agreement with you halvefast, if anything the 6th gearmap should be conservative.On an emotional basis however you keep getting nastygrams from folks in your inbox that tell you your bike is going to blow up or melt a piston etc. this issue has been debated to death on another forum and still nobody agrees if TRE is completely safe without a remap. Three times I contacted Schnitz RAcing and three times they said use it , won't hurt anything. No disputing the power increase though, I'm having trouble with wheelspin in the first three gears. Rollon races with flies removed 14's show equal low end power. WE are running stock bike/stock exhuast 14 with TRE on September 8th. Will show complete A/F curves and torque/power figures and hopefully put this issue to rest onece and for all. One big problem is that Ivan is no help, very poor product support.
Kruz
|
zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
|
posted August 25, 2006 04:48 PM
Edited By: zerMATT on 25 Aug 2006 17:53
The issue was put to rest - a long time ago. Just look at the first page of this post and you'll see way more dyno results than any average human could ever pay for. They pretty much speak for themselves. There is no "mojo" happening in the TRE, it's a couple of resistors tricking the ecu. I'm still waiting for a proper fix which reprograms the ECU to do exactly what we want, and with the correct fuel ratios. It will come, eventually. In the meantime, we've still got motorcycles with 168-176rwhp to ride.
Thanks for stirrin it up again fish, you're always on top of things.
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted August 26, 2006 10:16 AM
Ya know ... Brock and I did a LOT of work on this... you guys can call people and speculate....
but if you want facts, then go to the beginning of this topic, download the PDF and READ it.
- all your questions will be answered.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
htosado
Zone Head
Posts: 949
|
posted August 27, 2006 12:38 AM
I don't get the "stall" with the flies out theory. I'm not sure where that is coming from? I have honestly never had anything related to a stall with my flies out. I can ride hard, or casual, but no stalling. This may sound stupid, but could emissions in different areas change this in any way? I ride with other 14 guys with no problems either.
The way your story goes, you made it sound as if this was a poor choice.
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted August 27, 2006 08:15 AM
yep.
Like I said, read the story...
flies out or tre? buy a power commander and get it mapped.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
htosado
Zone Head
Posts: 949
|
posted August 27, 2006 08:56 AM
I have a power commander, and getting the dynotune/map tomorrow.
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted August 27, 2006 09:02 AM
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
htosado
Zone Head
Posts: 949
|
posted August 27, 2006 09:23 AM
They are going to have my bike for three days. I decided to have them change the oil/plugs/filters early cause I know they're going to kick the shit out of it.
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted August 27, 2006 02:45 PM
Dont need to change the plugs, Dont waste your $$$, tell them not to do it !!!
May need a new tire after though !!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
htosado
Zone Head
Posts: 949
|
posted August 27, 2006 06:10 PM
Ok.
|
jetman2
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
|
posted August 28, 2006 10:24 AM
Does ANYONE have a map for a TRE and stock pipe ??
I was about to jump on the TRE/flies bandwagon myself but will hold off until I can get a good map for one. I'll do the FULL custom map when I get the pipe I want... and it's out of warranty of course.
____________
Black 2006 ZX-14
|
htosado
Zone Head
Posts: 949
|
posted August 28, 2006 12:23 PM
I don't believe a map is needed for that, only the butterfly valves. the tre doesn't change your air flow mixture, it just changes the gear your bike thinks it's in. The flies actually change the amount of air the flows in, and therefore needs to re-map the air/fuel mixture.
|
ZX1400A6F
Novice Class
Posts: 65
|
posted September 04, 2006 06:20 AM
Edited By: ZX1400A6F on 4 Sep 2006 07:30
I don't have my flies out. I think I should after reading everything you guys have been saying about it............
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted September 04, 2006 06:46 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 4 Sep 2006 07:47
quote:
I don't believe a map is needed for that, only the butterfly valves. the tre doesn't change your air flow mixture, it just changes the gear your bike thinks it's in. The flies actually change the amount of air the flows in, and therefore needs to re-map the air/fuel mixture.
YES, A MAP IS NEEDED IF YOU ADD THE TRE TO A STOCK BIKE.
YES YOU NEED A MAP. THIS IS ALL IN THE ARTICLE AND EXACTLY WHY THIS WAS STUCK TO THE TOP OF THE FORUM.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
|
posted September 05, 2006 07:45 AM
Second to Fish---YES you need a map if you remove the secondarys---even if you run the stock exhause system. My dynoed hp went from 165 to 169 with the right map plus it was a LOT smoother. I have a map for secondary removal with the stock pipes but----it cost me $400.00 to get it.
|
fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted September 05, 2006 11:32 AM
LOOK... PEOPLE, READ THE ARTICLE... IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING... THAT IS WHY THIS TOPIC IS STUCK AT THE TOP OF THE FORUM, NOT FOR THEORY, BUT BECAUSE IT STATES FACT.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC