quote:
Not exactly the case from what I can tell from the manual. There is an ECU output voltage to the secondaries, and there is also an input sensor voltage it reads as well. If you built something that added voltage in parallel to the output and then pulled that same voltage out of the input sensor reading, the ECU would think all was okay.
I don't have the 14 manual, but from a ecu pinout from a zx-6r with secondaries there were 4 output pins to the secondary. Not just one. That's why I thought it was a stepper motor.
Fine control of a throttle valve is usually run by a stepper motor, not a single wire servo motor. Especially looking at Brocks pictures of the valve opening part way.
The return wire is more likely a TPS 5V signal and not a simple return voltage. Why would you check the same voltage that you put in?
I could be wrong here. Would be nice to see the wiring diagram and service manual pages for the secondaries if someone could scan.
posted July 03, 2006 07:46 AM
If the 14 is the same as the 6 then it does sound like it is a stepper motor. If it is using an potentiometer (TPS like) to feedback the stepper motor position via an analog voltage value then you could 'fake' the ECU into opening the secondaries with a switch and a resistor. By switching a resistor of the right value into the TPS voltage circuit you could make the ECU think the secondary is more closed than its supposed to be and cause it to open. Of course the ECU software may decide its taking to many steps to open the secondary and throw a TPS sensor error. Only way to find out would be to try it.
But even if you have to build a stepper motor controller that still would be a fairly easy thing (relatively speaking ) to do.
posted July 03, 2006 08:16 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 3 Jul 2006 09:27
saw that.. RR... you're caught in a "planetary alignment"... .run with it brother! this stuff only happens fer a reason! ____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
Just so we're clear: I have the TRE and the PC, and my neutral light works. I'm thinking it's working exactly right on mine. I just still want more power. Always!...
posted July 03, 2006 10:34 AM
cls thats good news but still dont know what is going on. As stated before I only have the TRE and my shift light, neutral light, and digital neutral indicator all still work. I have never checked the launch light setup since I dont drag race anymore. I will check the voltage going to the ecu fom the TRE tonight to see if it matches the spesified V in the service manual for 6th gear. If this thing works the way Ivan says it does the voltage should be the same.
____________
2006 ZX-14 (sold)
2012 ZX-14R (Brock's Perf. project bike Louisville Slugger)
2013 Honda VFR1200F
2003 124 C.I. H.D. Super glide
quote:Just a guess here, but does the shift light normally turn on when your in 6th? If the ECU thinks your already in 6th maybe its smart enough to know you don't have any more gears to shift up into. I'm guessing not to many of you have redlined your 14s in 6th
Many times... LOL!
Shift light blinks at me to upshift in 6th LOL.. I have it set at 10,300 RPM
I set it up short of redline because, you'll bounce it off the limiter in lower gears if set to close to redline.
Did you geta schematic for the ecu?
I have a shop manual and can scan it!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
posted July 03, 2006 12:35 PM
Ridge racer...
I scanned the ecu, and gear postion diagrams.
Image station sucks, and unless I'm doing something wrong, I can not send attachments using bikeland email system. Please send me email address, I will send schematics to you!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
posted July 03, 2006 01:31 PM
I couldn't get them loaded to imagestation, files to big to transfer from scanner?
They were 11kb each LOL
I zipped 4KB each LOL and emailed to RR.
hey I'm still learing how to use the damn computer.... LOL.
Wanted to toss it across room couple minutes ago. LOL
No doobies for Dubious.... quit years ago and still wonder if it was such a good idea ...LOL.
10 deep breaths not quite as effective.... or fun ... ____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
posted July 03, 2006 02:38 PM
Ok awnser this please. Drag race only, no street, removing butterflies. Will this burn up my engine? Only part throttle would be pack 2 the pits. And will the bike stall ,sputter, or be hard 2 keep running? Stock bike. If any1 does this please let me know. Thanks
posted July 03, 2006 02:51 PM
Brock do you have any dyno runs with the 14 with sidewinder, ignition,and Mr9 fuel. For the 12r you got 189.5.. what are the numbers for the 14?
posted July 03, 2006 03:21 PM
Thanks to dubious for the schematic
Here is the gear position switch.
It is NOT like the old ZX-12 so forget everything I said about it up thread. Sorry
This is an analog signal. Actually it is a much smarter way to go as you only need one wire into the ECU. Instead of having one of seven wires grounded the zx-14 has a single wire that will have 7 different voltages on it.
The schematic show only one resistor in the switch but there is more than likely one between each gear. Otherwise there would be no electrical difference between any of the gears. The center rotating contact is ground. As it rotates it changes the number of resistors between ground and the sense wire Green/Red.
To dublicate it we need to figure out the value of the resistors in the switch. Any one want to volunteer?
What I need someone to do is unplug the gear position switch and using an ohm meter measure the resistance between the Black / Yellow and Green /Red of the gear switch plug in each of the six gears and neutral.
Or someone with a manual could check to see if it lists the values under gear position troubleshooting. Sometimes they will give you the resistance so you can check for a bad switch.
As for the Neutral Issue. The neutral wire is a whole sperate wire from the gear position sense line. I don't see any reason why the TRE should disable the neutral.
posted July 03, 2006 05:28 PM
Edited By: johns on 3 Jul 2006 18:42
checked the TRE voltage OK I checked the TRE output voltage to the green/red stripe wire. The manual spec is .7 volts DC to ground in 6th gear. The output from my TRE on this wire is .74VDC. This .74VDC is present on the green/red all the time even in neutral. Still don't understand what is going on with other bikes that have disabled shift lights and no neutral light. The neutral light signal is a seperate ground signal off the gear position switch and should not be affected by the TRE. My shift light does work in 6th gear as well as all the other gears.
Ridgeracer the manual lists the following resistance values for the seperate gears from the green/red lead to ground.
1st gear--3.00 to3.22 ohms
2nd gear--1.7 to 1.89 ohms
3rd gear--1.07 to 1.19 ohms
4th gear--.695 to.769 ohms
5th gear--.430 to .476 ohms
6th gear--.248 to .274 ohms
quote:If the 14 is the same as the 6 then it does sound like it is a stepper motor. If it is using an potentiometer (TPS like) to feedback the stepper motor position via an analog voltage value then you could 'fake' the ECU into opening the secondaries with a switch and a resistor. By switching a resistor of the right value into the TPS voltage circuit you could make the ECU think the secondary is more closed than its supposed to be and cause it to open. Of course the ECU software may decide its taking to many steps to open the secondary and throw a TPS sensor error. Only way to find out would be to try it.
But even if you have to build a stepper motor controller that still would be a fairly easy thing (relatively speaking ) to do.
Unfortunately, the ecu goes through a cycle of opening and closing the secondary on start up. My guess is that it "memorizes" the steps needed from full open to full closed. A faulty TPS signal may trip another code. Certainly "too many steps" will probably spit a code.
A stepper motor controller wouldn't be too hard. In fact, they have motor control chips premade. The difficult part will be mapping the secondary throttles. And then after that, you'll need to remap the entire lower part of the fuel curve to your new rate of opening.
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted July 05, 2006 05:51 AM
Two functions need to happen:
1. simulate a stepper motor function for the ECU. That keeps it happy and it won't throw codes.
2. provide the proper output to control the stepper motor. As mentioned above, stepper motor controllers aren't hard to find.
How to accomplish the first? You need a memory scope or equiv to record the output voltage signal and waveform from the ECU to the stepper motor. Also record the position signal sent back to the ECU. Then build a simulator that mimics this.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted July 05, 2006 06:34 AM
swft and the rest of you.... once again (why do I even type this stuff if people dont read it) pretty sure that fully programmable control should (or could) be available throught the USB Hub... that would allow you control and full mapping of the flies. You may be reinventing the wheel.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted July 05, 2006 07:40 AM
Guys,
Before I tried the TRE or removing the plates... I ty-wrapped the secondaries open to see what would happen. In a nutshell, the bike idled at 4500 rpm but I was able to make a pull which showed promise- BUT, it tripped an FI code because the secondaries could not cycle properly.
A Busa will LOOSE power and acceleration (above 4Krpm) when you add the TRE. We install them intentionally to prevent wheelies on big HP bikes. I was surprised that the 6th gear map on the 14 didn't hurt acceleration? But, the time tickets don't lie- the back half ET was the same with and without the TRE. (FYI: According to my contacts as Suzuki....the Busa's top gear maps add fuel and retard the timing....so much for the name Timing Retard Eliminator....)
As far as anyone knows from print or internet...I have never had a sidewinder on my bike.
I assume you are speaking about the street megaphone?
The real answer is yes- I tested and mapped the sidewinder configurations also during the marathon. It makes the same hp as a Gen 3. Sidewinders usually don't show off until you modify the engine.....hmmmm, a Part 3 might loom...;o)
I still haven't changed ignition timing or increased the rpm limit- both are next on my schedule.
For now, I need to concentrate on my business...all of this writing has delayed some new products.
posted July 05, 2006 07:42 AM
As usual, it seems my bike reacts similiar to FBA,s My secondarys are removed and I have ABSOULTY no driveability issues. The increase in torque is amazing---no flat spots, no burping no nothing but a wonderfull power band. Is my bike unique?? Hell, I do not know but I am leaving everthing just as is and loving the smooth roll-on power. The way the bike feels on the street is worth more to me than any dyno chart. Besides, I have never heard of anyone holeing a piston at 3k rpm. If it does then the piston must be made of aluminum foil.
posted July 05, 2006 09:03 AM
Fish, we read what you said, but I also remember you saying don't hold your breath, it's a big company, etc. Besides it doesn't cost anything to speculate out loud.
Actually this thread is going all over the place. I'm not sure what the point is anymore. Here is what I'm getting out of it.
1)The secondary throttle is restricting the 14's power in the lower gears.
2)Making the ECU think its in 6th using a TRE will increase power in the lower gears but causes a very lean mixture condition that needs to be addressed.
3)The cool hi tech way to address the secondary would be to plug in a programmable secondary throttle controller box to override the ECU.
4) There seems to be an issues with with the TRE disabling neutral on some installations.
So here is my question to the group is anyone interested in how to build a poorman's TRE out a couple bucks of Radio Shack parts?
Thanks to everyone who was nice enough to take the time to scan some pages out of their manual and send it to me I now have enough information about the 14's gear position circuits to design a simple device, if you can call a resistor and a switch a device, to make the ECU think it is in 6th whenever you want (of course taking care of the lean mixture condition is still up to you).
The next question is do you want something that is better than the TRE but still easy to do it yourself?
From what johns said the TRE signals the ecu it is always in 6th, even in neutral. When the bike is in neutral two things are actually happening. First a seperate neutral wire is grounded which is wired to such things as the starter lockout, etc. Second the ECU is signaled that it is in neutral. The TRE it seems allows the neutral wire to be grounded but still signals the ECU it is in 6th gear. I don't know what effects if any this has on the bike, but it is not the way the bike was setup to operate. So the first improvement I would include is a true neutral where the ECU is signaled neutral when the bike is in neutral. This may or may not solve some of the neutral problems some people are having, but it couldn't hurt.
The other feature that I would add would be a gear adjustment that would allow you to pick which gears you want to signal as 6th. For example you could leave 1st and 2nd normal but 3,4,5, and 6 would always show 6th. The way I envision it the box would have and LED that would turn on whenever it was signaling 6th to the ECU. The box would have a trimmer pot that you adjust with a screwdriver. If you wanted it to start showing 6th in 3rd you would put the bike in 3rd and turn the pot left till the LED went off, then slowly to the right till it turned on. Then check by shifting through the gears; 1,N,2 the led would be off. 3,4,5,6 the led would be on signaling the ECU the bike was in 6th.
Such a device as described above would be simple to design and could be built for $20-30 with radio shack parts. Or if there was enough interest maybe we could professionally build a batch on circuit boards.
BTW if the ZX-10 TRE works the same way, by making the ECU think its in 6th, then this circuit would also work on the ZX-10
As for designing a stepper motor controller override whatever you call it; that is certainly a doable thing but for a number of reasons, including fish's I think I'll take a pass on that for the moment. If someone else wants to take the lead on that and needs help let me know.
posted July 05, 2006 12:14 PM
I don't remember anyone speaking about putting a hole in the piston. At least not me.
I will guarantee a 18-1 lean A/F ratio for an extended period of time will BLACK DEATH and SEIZE a piston if given enough time to do so. This engine has proven to be very strong (I have beaten the shit out of mine!). But, expecting an engine to remain in tact under these circumstances is not realistic.
I am simply trying to keep guys from tearing up their engine due to ignorance or bad internet advice.
posted July 05, 2006 01:10 PM
Whatever----mine still runs perfect at every throttle opening and rpm. I did get the Dynojet Power Commander today and will be taking it to a tuning center tomorrow for a custom map. Point--my bike is 100% stock except for the seconday throttle plate removal and will stay that way. If it just runs as good after the mapping as it does now I will be happy. I have been doing this for 45 years and have raced pro back in the 70 - 80's with turbo and nitrous bikes so I know what will hole a piston and is not small throttle openings at 3000 to 4000 rpm.
posted July 05, 2006 01:16 PM
Edited By: 14black on 5 Jul 2006 14:16
quote:As usual, it seems my bike reacts similiar to FBA,s My secondarys are removed and I have ABSOULTY no driveability issues. The increase in torque is amazing---no flat spots, no burping no nothing but a wonderfull power band. Is my bike unique?? Hell, I do not know but I am leaving everthing just as is and loving the smooth roll-on power. The way the bike feels on the street is worth more to me than any dyno chart. Besides, I have never heard of anyone holeing a piston at 3k rpm. If it does then the piston must be made of aluminum foil.
I think it was Ojref that removed his flies on a stock bike and did A/F testing that showed no lean condition from3-5K...can someone confirm this?
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posted July 03, 2006 07:24 AM
) to do. 
Edited By: 
LOL.. I have it set at 10,300 RPM 
