johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted July 02, 2006 06:08 AM
A/F ratios with & without a TRE
Nice piece of research Brock and very well written. I am assuming (a dangerous thing) based on reading the article three times that the A/F ratio readings on the dyno charts were all on full throttle pulls, so the A/F ratios were with the primary throttle plates pinned wide open. Did the secondary plates open more and sooner at partial throttle openings at a steady state RPM and create the same lean condition you documented at full throttle or do the secondarys only open quicker with a TRE (or on a stock bike in 6th gear) at higher primary throttle openings? Since the TRE simply locks the ECU into the stock Kawasaki 6th gear program I assume (there I go again) that the same lean condition you documented exists on a ZX-14 in 6th gear without a TRE? My bike is stock except for the TRE and I have had no off idle problems. The only observable change is a modest but noticable increase in power in the same RPM range you (and Ivan) documented. Gas milage is the same with or without the TRE.
  
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted July 02, 2006 08:12 AM
Doug,
Thank you. I liked your ride/write up on Rob's bike also- nice read!
I am VERY impressed with the way Kawasaki has approached the 14. It's a fantastic bike off of the showroom floor. But, as we figure it out...it gets EVEN better....it's as if they tested it with bolt-ons to BE SURE it would respond accordingly?!
cls- be sure the black/yellow is in the side of Ivan's connector with the black mark and the green/red is in the other side. Also be sure there is a good ground connection to the black wire.
My neutral does not work. Ivan's instructions say it should.... I will try to check other things on my bikes which could be causing this. I have noticed that it takes the 14 a bit longer to reset the ECU after an error code etc. My bike is it the trailer- I'll take it for a ride and see what happens.
Brock
Brock's Performance
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted July 02, 2006 08:26 AM
 Edited By: Brock on 2 Jul 2006 09:54
Johns,
I also performed 25% load mapping at lower throttle openings in various gears...but, this is basically not possible to put on paper easily. The charts shown show the same results I saw during these tests.
My maps require a minimum of 5 and maximum of **30** numbers in certain areas.....this is A LOT of extra fuel. BUT, if your riding doesn't include these areas- I guess your mileage wouldn't suffer as much as expected.
HP/Torque increases are the result of having enough O2 to burn more fuel....
If I remove the tre and perform a 6th gear run with the tre map still installed...it FLOODS the engine with fuel in the areas where the remap is required. Not sure if this answers your question?
BD
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted July 02, 2006 08:52 AM
You know,
I have been thinking about this mileage issue.... (Occasionally a dangerous thing!)
I have had more than one customer state that they have not seen the same fuel consumption issues on the street that I witness on the dyno while using the exact same map...
I wonder if this equates to a reduced need to be "on the gas" to accelerate to a desired speed due to the new-found increase in torque? Also, I looked again at the 0-2 throttle openings around 3K and the increased fuel numbers are not as dramatic as I see in other areas- with the TRE map. So, once to find cruising speed, there would not be a big difference in mileage.
FYI: the No plates map sees a huge increase in required fuel even at idle.
FYI: a ZX-14 will cruise 65-75 MPH on the dyno at around 2% throttle!
I love my customers! They are bright enough to give me usable information to help "reverse engineer" an explanation/concept- even if it conflicts with my measured data. Thanks guys.
I say it all the time...we (I) simply do not have the means to measure ALL aspects of the operation of a motorcycle.
Brock
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted July 02, 2006 09:42 AM
Brock,
my cruise fuel mileage with pipe, map and plates out has dropped considerably!
90 mph stock was 6.5 l/ 100 km or 37 mpg..
now I get
90 mph = 5.2l/ 100 km or 46 mpg!!!
These are the instant fuel mileage readings from the display.
of course my avg fuel consumption has not changed... around 7 l / 100 km or approx 35 mpg. city/ hwy combined.
Still pretty good considering the way i ride it!
Under less than full engine load the pistons are just moving instead of labouring to fill, and scavenge the combustion chamber.
I wonder what the throttle position differences, on the dyno.. are to maintain 90 mph stock, vs mod would be , and the fuel being utililized at those TP and RPM.
Using the dj maps would likely be more accurate than the factory gauge.
Probably 15-20% like the difference I have witnessed in fuel mileage!
I am very impressed none the less! 
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted July 02, 2006 09:44 AM
bet that thing gets about 15mpg or worse if you ride it like you stole it.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted July 02, 2006 12:29 PM
Well, I try, but the cops don't find it too amusing.
we have a set of lights right on town limits, and speed limit chages to 100k , right after them.
Other evening I had my tinted visor on still, and didn't notice a cop pull up behind me in other lane 3 cars back.
I pegged it when light changed, didn't lift , just squated and fucked off, right around 7500 where it starts to power wheelie, I shut it down and upshifted quickly...
Needless to say he pulled me over... Not too impressed, clocked me at 107 km/hr and wanted to write me for stunting... I never burned rubber, nor lifted the tire.
Told me to smarten up and fucked off! 
worst indicated instantaneous I recall was about 16 l / 100 km in 5th or 6th which would be 15 mpg!
I guess I could ride around at redline in 1st gear, down high way and such....
Not too many curves around these places, so 1/2" chicken strips, but the center see's it share of hard wear!
in bottom 3 gears, on shity pavement, the front wants to lift, while rear is spinning!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted July 02, 2006 12:40 PM
TRE question again Brock
What I was trying to get at Brock is since the TRE locks the bikes ecu map into the 6th gear map (it doesn't modify anything thats in the ecu program already) it stands to reason that the same lean A/F ratios you saw at 3000 to 4000 RPM would also be there in a 6th gear pull without a TRE installed and with no power commander correction. Since you're bike had the sidewinder pipe installed (I think) for these tests do you think this caused the A/F spike to be more pronounced than it would be with a stock set of pipes. Youre statement about the bike being able to maintain 70 MPH at around 2% throttle position was also what I was getting at in questioning whether the TRE caused a very lean condition at lower throttle positions by opening the secondarys sooner . The very high and potentially engine killing A/F ratios on you're full throttle pulls must not be present at very low throttle positions (steady speeds) where you cruise for long periods. Pulling through these lean areas quickly under power, although not ideal, probably will not kill a motor but if they existed at steady low throttle positions at steady speeds for longer periods of time it could cause serious problems. Since Kawasaki installed different gear maps to control the secondary throttle plates (which you were able to directly observe) is it reasonable to think they also have multiple fuel and ignition maps for seperate gears? I think this is a reasonable assumption in a design this sophisticated. Again thanks for the excellent and thorough research into the effect the TRE and the secondary throttle plate removal modifications had on performance and A/F ratios without any correction and after correction. By the way my TRE did not disable the neutral light or the digital neutral indicator.
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dubious
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Posts: 8442
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posted July 02, 2006 01:12 PM
Ivan said there was no way around the gear indicator issue, as I wanted cake and the icing.
If your gear indicator works, reads all gears.... then your TRE is not functioning!
The tre functions by sending 6th gr. signal to ecu , which sends the gear position signal to the dash.
It gives the ignition timing 6th has, to all gears, as well as the fuel map.
the lean area is between 3000 and 4500 rpm, right where most will cruise, so many ham fisted roll ons in this area will burn pistons and valves.
looking at my map from brock, quite a bit of fuel was added at all throttle positions in this rpm.
Yes, The free flowing aftermarket exhausts will aggrevate the lean condition.
I have not seen a map for stock exhaust, tre or secondaries disabled, I am not aware if he has tested this combination.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 02, 2006 01:27 PM
(Disclaimer: I have not seen a ZX-14 schematic yet. The following ass-u-me s that it is the same as the ZX-12 and has a rotary gear switch that grounds one of seven wires; 1,n,2,3,4,5,6)
The TRE sounds like a very bad execution of a good idea. If all you want to do is trick the ECU into thinking its always in 6th gear then all you need is a pair of wire cutters and some tape.
For the price you would expect it to have more features than those you get by just cutting two wires and twisting them together. I gave it a little thought and came up this circuit in about an hour.
http://www.olympus.net/personal/mbially/zx14-gear-6.pdf
With this circuit your neutral would always work, it has a remote switch to select between normal and modified mode, and the DIP switch lets you select which of the first 5 gears you want to pretend to be 6th. So for instance you could have 1st and 2nd work normally but have 3rd, 4th and 5th all act like 6th. If I someone would send me a schematic it might be possible to do this and still have the gears display properly on the indicator. Of course any time you made any change to the settings you would have to remap your PC III.
I did this as an exercise to see how hard it would be to come up with a something better than the TRE. Of course if some one actually wants to build one and try it out let me know.
Other things that crossed my mind were;
Instead of physically removing the butterflys why not just wire the actuator with a switch so you can just override the ECU and have them full open when you want to race but still have a streetable bike most of the time. (Again the Fuel map is an issue. )
Second the real solution would be a mini commander for the secondary throttles that you could program to open at a given rpm etc. I would need to see a schematic of the 14 before I would know how easy that would be, but it should be fairly straight forward.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted July 02, 2006 01:35 PM
quote:
By the way my TRE did not disable the neutral light or the digital neutral indicator.
can you confirm for us if your TRE is connected per this method?
quote:
cls- be sure the black/yellow is in the side of Ivan's connector with the black mark and the green/red is in the other side. Also be sure there is a good ground connection to the black wire.
As mentioned earlier it is possible to hook the TRE up backwards as the connector has no gender.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted July 02, 2006 01:37 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 2 Jul 2006 14:39
quote:
(Disclaimer: I have not seen a ZX-14 schematic yet. The following ass-u-me s that it is the same as the ZX-12 and has a rotary gear switch that grounds one of seven wires; 1,n,2,3,4,5,6)
The TRE sounds like a very bad execution of a good idea. If all you want to do is trick the ECU into thinking its always in 6th gear then all you need is a pair of wire cutters and some tape.
For the price you would expect it to have more features than those you get by just cutting two wires and twisting them together. I gave it a little thought and came up this circuit in about an hour.
http://www.olympus.net/personal/mbially/zx14-gear-6.pdf
With this circuit your neutral would always work, it has a remote switch to select between normal and modified mode, and the DIP switch lets you select which of the first 5 gears you want to pretend to be 6th. So for instance you could have 1st and 2nd work normally but have 3rd, 4th and 5th all act like 6th. If I someone would send me a schematic it might be possible to do this and still have the gears display properly on the indicator. Of course any time you made any change to the settings you would have to remap your PC III.
I did this as an exercise to see how hard it would be to come up with a something better than the TRE. Of course if some one actually wants to build one and try it out let me know.
Other things that crossed my mind were;
Instead of physically removing the butterflys why not just wire the actuator with a switch so you can just override the ECU and have them full open when you want to race but still have a streetable bike most of the time. (Again the Fuel map is an issue. )
Second the real solution would be a mini commander for the secondary throttles that you could program to open at a given rpm etc. I would need to see a schematic of the 14 before I would know how easy that would be, but it should be fairly straight forward.
I LOVE IT!  !!!
RR... the last item (controlling the secondaires) is what I mentioned at the end of the article. There is a chance the USB hub could solve that for everyone, giving you full programability of it.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 02, 2006 01:51 PM
Of course the BEST solution would be to figure out how to reprogram the existing ECU. Someone should look into that 
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted July 02, 2006 01:56 PM
quote:
Instead of physically removing the butterflys why not just wire the actuator with a switch so you can just override the ECU and have them full open when you want to race but still have a streetable bike most of the time. (Again the Fuel map is an issue. )
Second the real solution would be a mini commander for the secondary throttles that you could program to open at a given rpm etc. I would need to see a schematic of the 14 before I would know how easy that would be, but it should be fairly straight forward.
The secondary plates run off a stepper motor. If you did "activate" it with an external switch, first, the ecu would likely see an improper TPS signal and puke out a code. Second, after getting out of the throttle, the ecu may spit out another code after trying to reset the changes made by the "piggyback," or be unable to do this all together.
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted July 02, 2006 02:00 PM
Edited By: jw on 2 Jul 2006 15:02
I don't think it's an on/off switch (or open/closed valve) and actually may take readings off a table like the fuel map or ignition map. In this case, % secondary throttle opening on a TPS vs rpm map.
I think it would be easier to make an entirely separate controller for the plates than force it open then somehow let the computer resume control.
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cls
Expert Class
Posts: 410
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posted July 02, 2006 02:49 PM
Brock/Fish,
I can't tell what's turned which way on the TRE plug. The mechanic taped it all up, nice and neat. I can't imagine he'd get it wrong, if it's clear in the directions. He's very meticulous. If it were plugged in backwards, or upside down or whatever, would it still read, "6" whenever it's in gear? Also, I can't imagine the Gen. 3 and PC w/TRE map would make for a stronger low-end w/o the TRE. Make sense?
I'll run it by the mechanic on Wed. when the shop opens back up. Meanwhile, keep me posted on other possibilities/findings.
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vegasdude
Zone Head
Posts: 821
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posted July 02, 2006 04:13 PM
Edited By: vegasdude on 2 Jul 2006 17:14
maybe your neutral light is wired wrong...........haha. seriously though, if the TRE is not hooked up correctly and the gear shift indicator is not hooked up correctly, then nothing will work except your neutral light........................that makes more sense................
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 02, 2006 04:20 PM
It would not be that complicated to wire the TRE so the Neutral still worked, maybe there are different versions of the TRE floating around out there.
I did some more thinking on this and my previous idea was probably overly complicated. Given you have to remap the PCIII every time you change the setup having a circuit that would allow you to quickly modify the settings probably isn't needed. So in the style of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) here is the simplified version.
http://www.olympus.net/personal/mbially/zx14-gear-5.pdf
DISCLAIMER: Again this is how you would do it on a ZX-12. I'm assuming the -10, -14 are the same. Again if someone posts a schematic I'll check it to make sure and redo the drawings with the wire colors.
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted July 02, 2006 04:41 PM
Edited By: johns on 2 Jul 2006 17:45
wiring the TRE
Fish, guys which plug are you talking about that it is possible to plug in backwards? The only plug on the TRE is the one provided with the TRE and you cannot plug it in backwards as it will only go together one way. This is a OEM quality plug with a locking pin and 0-ring seals to keep moisture out just like the stock Kawasaki 2 wire connectors on the bike. It is possible to wire this plug backwards when you transfer the two wires from the green GPS connector under the fuel rail. The instructions are spesific and say to remove the green wire with a red stripe and the black wire with a yellow stripe from the female end of the green 4 wire connector and carefully install them in the proper marked location on the 2 wire connector supplied with the TRE. The wires can be installed in the supplied connector backwards but the connector cannot be plugged in backwards as it will only go together one way. All you need to install the TRE is a fine pointed awl or a small nail to release the pins from the stock green GPS connector so they can be pulled out and inserted in the marked location on the connector supplied with the TRE. It took me less than 5 minutes to install including reading the instructions.
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted July 02, 2006 07:20 PM
quote:
quote:
Instead of physically removing the butterflys why not just wire the actuator with a switch so you can just override the ECU and have them full open when you want to race but still have a streetable bike most of the time. (Again the Fuel map is an issue. )
Second the real solution would be a mini commander for the secondary throttles that you could program to open at a given rpm etc. I would need to see a schematic of the 14 before I would know how easy that would be, but it should be fairly straight forward.
The secondary plates run off a stepper motor. If you did "activate" it with an external switch, first, the ecu would likely see an improper TPS signal and puke out a code. Second, after getting out of the throttle, the ecu may spit out another code after trying to reset the changes made by the "piggyback," or be unable to do this all together.
Not exactly the case from what I can tell from the manual. There is an ECU output voltage to the secondaries, and there is also an input sensor voltage it reads as well. If you built something that added voltage in parallel to the output and then pulled that same voltage out of the input sensor reading, the ECU would think all was okay.
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swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted July 02, 2006 10:02 PM
[
That's interesting because my neutral light and shift light still work with the TRE installed on my 14, just says 6 gear and no launch light, that's it.
didnt on the test bike and also didnt on Vegasdude's bike... you might want to double check to see if all those lights etc still work.
I've been using it for 4 weeks now, when I first put it on my shift light, lauch light and gear indicator didn't work, but the neutral light and indicator have always worked, after having it on for a week or so the shift light started working and has been working every since, I'm not sure if the ecu learns and corrects for it later or what, but mine do work now.
____________
2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted July 02, 2006 10:26 PM
quote:
Fish and swiftkart,
My neutral light still works w/the TRE, as well. I wonder if that means something was not hooked up correctly. It makes a nice difference, but I don't think it makes the kind of difference Brock's numbers show. Problem or all in my head?
I'll call Brock and Ivan for their opinion, also. Want to make sure I'm getting all I should be...
It should be working according to Ivan and his directions, mine works also, neutral light and N indicator, anyone who's isn't most likely has something wrong or something is different on theirs, ours are doing what we were told they would.
____________
2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted July 03, 2006 02:47 AM
TRE & neutral indicator with shift light
This is really beginning to bug me as to why some folks with a TRE lose their shift light/neutral light and others do not. Finally got off my lazy ass and pulled the service manual. The manual (section 3 page 71) says that in 6th gear there should be .7V DC from the green wire with a red stripe to ground when the bike is in 6th gear. You can measure this at the TRE connector where the green/red wire goes into the TRE connector. You need a good quality digital meter and a needle adaptor to check this. I do not have time to check this until after work today but I will tonight. My bike is stock (no power commander) with a TRE and it has a neutral light and the shift light works. The gear indicator shows 6th gear when the bike is in any gear and N when it is in neutral. I did not ask Ivan about the shift light but the neutral and gear indicator work like his directions say they should. There is no logical reason if the TRE simply locks in the 6th gear voltage signal to the bikes ECU for the shift light not to work (it worked in 6th gear before installing the TRE). I understand why the launch light no longer works since it is only apparently enabled when the bikes ECU sees the bike is in 1st gear. I am beginning to wonder if the loss of the neutral indicator and shift light is only happening on bikes with a TRE and the ZX-10 power commanders. Mine works like Ivan said it would and I dont have a power commander. Is there anyone else with a TRE and no power commander who has lost youre neutral light/shift light?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 03, 2006 07:13 AM
Just a guess here, but does the shift light normally turn on when your in 6th? If the ECU thinks your already in 6th maybe its smart enough to know you don't have any more gears to shift up into. I'm guessing not to many of you have redlined your 14s in 6th
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 03, 2006 07:19 AM
Brock, U Da Man!! Some of you may remember when I tested 2 ZX12R's to see what the differences in the Velocity stacks were between stock and midified to be a smooth fit between the Throttle bodies and the rubber Boots. I spent all day on it and when I got home, I did not have the strength to hit a key on the computer! I was Wore Out!
After reading this, I am wore out again and think I need to go home and get back in the bed! Brock, you are no Youngster and that was enough work to wear out "2" 25 year olds! The #1 good thing is there are "NO Questions left about anything in this area" WOW!! I am glad that we have you because you have saved a lot of people from ruining their bikes and lives. All I can say to you is :Thanks!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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