trenace
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posted August 04, 2005 05:28 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 5 Aug 2005 01:35
Supermoto tire suggestions for limerock / dirt roads, go kart track?
Suggestions for tires for a supermoto for combined paved street (mostly just to get to the unpaved roads), limerock or other unpaved roads mostly, hopefully some woods as well but honestly I don't know where so I guess that's the lowest priority, and some track time on a tight go-kart track?
I've seen a couple of companies are coming out with tires intended for supermoto, plus there's some new tire designed specifically for that new Buell which seems somewhat close to the above blend of purposes, but seemed better to ask for some experience rather than relying on ad copy.
UPDATE: Just found this Avon... don't know anything about it except that it's supposed to be for Supermoto and for both pavement and dirt:
Ugly as all get-out but the tread pattern seems logical for the purpose.
There's also the Pirelli Scorpions but they don't look like they'd have too much grip in the dirt.
Also checked into the designed-for-the-Buell tires, but looks like it is being offered only in a 180 rear which would be too big, though those tires were designed for both dirt and street (better for street than traditional dual-purpose tires) and so otherwise seemed like a possibility.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks!
  
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trenace
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posted August 06, 2005 09:28 AM
Well, still hoping for advice from those here who have experience with tires for purposes like these, but in the meantime this seems a fairly good source of feedback/opinions on dual sport tires:
http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/TireOpinionsFAQ.htm
Unfortunately, the great majority of tires discussed won't fit supermotos (not available in 17 inch fronts.)
Interesting point made on that board, that an Avon rep said to run the front backwards-rotation because doing so causes it to track better in loose stuff. Wow, they must have spent a lot of time in the tread design to wind up with something that works better when put backwards from intended! 
Or maybe that's unfair, maybe things are at cross-purposes -- what's best for clearing water may not be the best for traction on loose surfaces.
Looks like the Distanzia may have to be it, unless there are other suggestions?
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herk
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posted August 11, 2005 02:25 PM
Trenace, you got a supermoto or what???
That avon is what my buddy has, he seemed to like them.
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trenace
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posted August 11, 2005 09:34 PM
Edited By: trenace on 11 Aug 2005 22:41
I don't have one yet, but sent off the check for a supposedly-not-much-used 2005 KTM 525 SMR. Really looking forward to it as it's been WAY too long since I've been in the dirt or even limerock roads and so forth.
Got in the Distanzia rear tire but not the front (separate shipments.) In person it seems much more promising than the pic, though that's obviously about the shallowest tire evaluation ever
The KTM was supposed to be starting on its way today but there was a screwup in that I thought it was going to be in a crate, the truck showed up and it was on a pallet, so they rescheduled the pickup... hopefully I'll have it next week!
Gotta get it street legal, at least barely so (headlight and brakelight.) Apparently that's not too tough with EXC parts, so I gotta get on that.
Of course something dire will probably happen to me for buying a non-Kawasaki... this is my first non-Kawasaki in my adult life. (Had a Yamaha dual-purpose bike as a kid.) I had really been thinking of making a KLX300 or KLX650 a supermoto, but, decided the KLX650 had both a big weight and a big power disadvantage over the Katoom, while the KLX300 had really a lot of power disadvantage; and the Kawasaki's I'd have to spend further money to convert to supermoto while the KTM already is. Plus I wasn't finding a specific KLX that seemed like the one to buy. So hopefully heaven will forgive me???
Though maybe I will get struck down by the KTM motor not having as much durability as a KLX motor, it's quite possible. I hope that won't happen.
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herk
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posted August 12, 2005 02:04 PM
I should be the proud owner of a LC4 KTM really soon.
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trenace
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posted August 12, 2005 06:43 PM
Cool!
That actually may be the route I should have gone... while I know very very little about KTM's still, if I understand correctly the LC's are built to be more durable.
(Not that I know the SMR will be inadequate in that regard, I don't.)
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Bigsaint
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posted August 13, 2005 09:17 PM
Hey Tren, way cool on the KTM ! While the LC4 bikes have a somewhat larger oil capacity you should be fine on the 525. I have a '05 525SX ( MX model of yours). Oil changes are a bit of a PITA but not bad once you have done one or two. Keep an eye on the valves, the KTM RFS ( racing four stroke) motors need adjustment at around the first 3-5 hours and then again around 10-20 hour intervals, depending on how much you ride at WOT. It's a easy job though with a screw and tappet design, no shims. Pick up a Motion Pro feeler gauge to make life easy.
If you check ebay you will find numerous sources of oil filters in bulk. The bike takes two paper filters. Hi-Flow is much cheaper than OEM and has worked wel for me.
The Katooms come somewhat lean stock. You can experiment with different jets or just get a JD jetting kit for your bike. I have a JD kit in my 525, no complaints.
If you have any back popping on decel, check the headers first, specifically where they attach to the flanges at the head. My 525 leaked there. I removed the headers and sealed it with Permatex ultra copper, problem solved.
Keep a close eye on chain tension ( or the lack thereof) also. Katooms like a loose chain, way looser than anything that you have probably ever experienced.
Most of all enjoy the new ride. The 525 has a awesome power to weight configuration, should be a blast in SM form !!!
Scott W.
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trenace
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posted August 13, 2005 10:11 PM
Thanks Scott, I appreciate it! Glad to hear from you on it, as you know whereof you speak with them while I'm as noob as you can get to the KTM's!
Definitely, especially thank you for the specific tips! Otherwise, I would not have known. I will definitely be watching for these, and will try the jet kit.
Sounds like I should probably check the valves very first thing then, even before riding, as the bike is supposed to have about 5 rides on it.
The power to weight that you mention is really why I went with this one. The KLX300 or 650 ideas I'd had would have either been badly deficient on power compared to this KTM, or way heavy on weight... and compared to the over-600-cc KTM's this one is so much lighter, by 50 lb or more. It is going to be really cool (to me anyway) to see what it will do!
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bigsaint
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posted August 14, 2005 05:40 PM
Sounds good buddy. Email me a pic when you get it !
bigsaint@tellurian.net
Also, KTMtalk.com is a great resource, lots of useful info there. If you check the how to section you will see a few guides on doing the valves.
10-4 on the weigth ratio also. My 625 is considerably more heavy than the 525, you chose wisely imo
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trenace
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posted August 14, 2005 06:48 PM
I have a couple of pics the first owner sent me, here they are:
Free Image Hosting [xs.to]
Not that I didn't want to e-mail you, I just thought posting them would make good sense and also get them to you.
Thank you also for the KTM Talk tip! I've just gone there and indeed that's a wealth of information! Looks like just the ticket.
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Bigsaint
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posted August 14, 2005 09:07 PM
That's awesome Tren ! I just checked the stats on the KTM site, appears to fairly similar to my SX but with better front braking. Compression is the same as is primary drive and stator. You also have the six speed which will be great for you purpose, mine has a four speed for MX. Carbs are the same, probably the same silencer as well.
I just checked and I still have my red needle left over from my JD kit. It's recc use is for either higher alt or high temps/humidity. You'll find the jet needle that's in the bike has very little taper. With the JD needles you can usually drop down a size or two on the main jet. See how your runs where you are and if you want my JD red needle I will send it to ya. I really have no use for it where I ride. You might have to drop down on the main jet with this needle but you might be able to accomplish the same by just raising the clip on the needle a slot or two. Regardless it's your free for the asking if you want to try it.
Another thought... these bikes heat up real fast at idle with no rad fan. If you stay fanless keep the idle time to a very short minimum or you will blow coolant. The rads will also blow coolant if overfilled. The level should be just a few mm over the top of the fins.
Starting cold... my procedure that works great for the SX is to pull the choke, kick it ten times through with the decompression lever engaged and no throttle, then two quick twists of the throttle to load it up, find TDC and then go just beyond it while using the decomp lever, let the kick start lever return to it's full stroke and then one steady long kick. Usually starts on the first kick. If it's hot and hard to start, pull out the hot start button on the carb, no throttle, find tdc, go just beyod tdc and then kick. Usually two kicks if I dumped te bike and stalled. You probably won't need the hot start unless you dump it. Just shutting the bike down and then restarted when hot with a kick will work normally. The bike has a large carb and sometimes needs the extra help of the hot start when hot..
Also, I have a '03 cd service manual which will cover most for your bike. I'm not sure if it's "burnable" but if it is I can send you a copy. The manual that comes with the bike is decent IMO. It covers all the normal service stuff but doesn't go into the valve adjustments how to.
Welcome to team orange ! I think you will be impressed with the overall quality of the bike. Send me a email if I can help with anything. I also have a great dealer very close to home that stocks most parts. There is also a on line ordering page on the ktmtalk site that gives you 15% off list and has schematics to search for what you need.
Scott
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trenace
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posted August 14, 2005 10:57 PM
Edited By: trenace on 14 Aug 2005 23:58
Thank you Scott!! That is awesome!!
I very much appreciate it and will let you know when it comes in! I really won't know anything till then!
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Bigsaint
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posted August 15, 2005 01:05 PM
10-4 tren. I'll check on the cd i n the mean time, I'm fairly certain it's burnable. If I recall correctly it's in pdf format.
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Bigsaint
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posted August 15, 2005 09:13 PM
Tren, shoot me a PM with a shipping addy. I just burned it. To keep us safe on the copyright infringement I will send you my original and keep my copy D:
I promise, no letters bombs or anthrax enclosed !
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trenace
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posted August 15, 2005 09:17 PM
Wow, thank you Saint!!
I got the owner's manual via the mail today (ahead of the bike) and sure enough just as you said, the necessary info for adjusting the valves and no doubt lots of other stuff isn't there, so this is a fantastic help!
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Bigsaint
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posted August 15, 2005 09:31 PM
Cool, happy to help a brother Katoom owner !. Can't wait for your first ride report...
I forgot that the SMR has slicks, maybe get them grooved just for the halibut ? I'm running Pirelli MT60's right now on the 625 and I think they would do well for what you want. I never tried them of road though.
Scott
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trenace
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posted August 15, 2005 10:10 PM
Edited By: trenace on 15 Aug 2005 23:14
Yup, it's coming with slicks. I'll put the Avon Distanzia's on as most of my focus at least at first will be all the unpaved twisty roads in the area that I've never been able to ride (or rather have been unwilling to on the 12.) They will be fine for starting out on the local go-kart track as well, but it seems to make sense that once I get some hang of it with those, it would make sense to use the slicks, and grooving the slicks would be the best really because that way I could ride there legally.
Which to me is cool, having a track bike that I can ride to the track.
I know there's also a paved flat-track not too far off, I think there is a dirt one also. I definitely would like to try my hand at some dirt flat-tracking as well. The 17" wheels aren't really ideal for that (and ideally the suspension would be lowered) but I would think it would certainly be possible to have fun anyway at dirt flat-tracking with the 17" Avons and stock ride height. Maybe with time I can even learn enough about the KTM to understand how to quickly and appropriately adjust it back and forth between good supermoto and good flat-track set-ups.
At least so far as tread pattern goes, the Pirelli looks pretty similar to the Avons:
Of course tread pattern doesn't say a heck of a lot though it does say more about performance off-road than it does on the pavement.
I'd already bought the Distanzia's, despairing of getting an answer on my original question! LOL! Oh well, I was a little too quick I guess!
On that BMW site they gave them a fairly fair rating off-road.
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spam
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posted August 16, 2005 06:54 AM
Edited By: spam on 16 Aug 2005 07:57
Hey Trenace,
Sorry didn't see your post until now... DS tires- I know a bit....
The tires you posted pics of above are okay if you are mostly doing flat gravel roads and forest service roads and NO mud. The Avons are well know with long distance dual sport tourers (i.e. round the world trippers) because they stand up really well and are pretty grippy on pavement and can do a bit of dirt- but only a bit. They are hard-wall construction designed to go tubeless, which makes them harder to spoon onto the rims. If you are a dirt newb, you may not know that your tires are likely to go flat way more often than your street 12R's do b/c of sharp rocks and nails and screws and other sharp shit that falls out of the back of redneck's trucks. Depending on where you ride, you should be able to fix your flats yourself, especially if you are in an area where pressing the first-world escape button and getting trucked out is not an easy option. The beauty of tubes in tires is that you can wedge your bike up on a stump, pull off the tire, swap out the tube for a spare, pump it back up with the bicycle pump in your flat tire repair kit and ride out, instead of having to be rescued. Tires designed to have tubes are easier to get on and off the rim (important when you are changing the tires trailside instead of in your garage). Your tire changing abilities will be all about having the right tools and practice, practice, practice.
I don't really know what the footing will be like in your area or on the flat dirt tracks you are describing- I highly recommend that you talk to people who ride in the areas you are planning to ride, find out what they are running and run those. If you can tap into the dualsport community in your area, those guys (and gals) will be familiar with the climate and dirt in your area and will have more than likely tried out a bunch of tire combos already. It sounds like you are just looking for something to ride to the dirt on, with an emphasis on riding the dirt once you get there. Remember that you can ride almost any tire on pavement, you just may not be able to drag a knee en route on good knobbie dirt tires. Another thing I learned coming from riding a street bike to a DS bike is that dirt tires are way cheaper. So don't be put off a knobbie tire because it is half the price of the Avons- that is normal and even though cheaper, is probably a way better dirt tire than the $$$ Avons.
Cheers and happy DS riding!!!
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trenace
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posted August 16, 2005 07:27 AM
Thanks Spam!
The flat gravel roads and forest service roads, no mud, pretty much describes what I'll be riding on (along with limerock and so forth but those are similar for traction.) So I should be OK then.
That makes a lot of sense what you are saying about tubes! I never had known anything before except that "you need them because of the spoked wheels," which actually isn't true anymore with some of the spoked wheels and due to the kits that are available now to reversibly seal-up the spoked wheels so one can run tubeless. You've pointed out further reasons why one might want tubes.
But , unfortunately I'm not doing any big adventures, just half-the-day sort of trips with cell phone coverage, so I should be OK!
Sounds like I should perhaps at some point try a more dirt oriented tire as well! But, from what you say the Distanzias should be fine for the non-challenging fun riding I'll be doing, so that sounds good.
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spam
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posted August 16, 2005 08:07 AM
Sagot and I ran Bridgestone Trailwings for the first part of our South America trip- they lasted an astonishing 12,000km including probably 5000 km gravel/sand off road. I'd say they are 50/50% pavement/dirt tires. I think the Avons are 90/10 or 80/20. Once you wear those out, get yourself some knobbies and have some fun!! Its possible even within cell phone range...
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trenace
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posted August 16, 2005 08:09 AM
OK! I will give that direction a try as well! (Amazing how versatile these bikes can be.) Thanks!
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