Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted May 06, 2006 10:57 PM
Does Kawasaki give Sport Rider "ringer bikes?"
Okay, what is it with the zx10s in Sport Rider having a rediculous HP advantage over everyone else? It happened with the first 2004 shootout they had, and now with the 2006 shootout.
I think we will all agree that there is no more than a 2-3 hp disparity between the new Gixxer 1000 and the new zx10r. People I know who have dynoed them in the real world back to back have verified this. Here is a dyno comparison from a lesser know publication to also verify this: http://photos.motorcycle-usa.com/80787superbikehp.jpg
Not too sure how many of you have read the new issue of SR, but there is something ridiculous like a 7 or 8 HP advantage that the 10 has over the Gixxer. Supposedly these dyno runs are done back to back on the same day. So who is supplying SR with their test bikes?? 
  
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
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posted May 06, 2006 11:25 PM
If I can get someone local to run me on the highway.... lll let you know.
Rode a 1000RR tonight with a friend and did some testing.
The RR was stronger than I thought... but still went down to the mighty gix.
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Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted May 06, 2006 11:34 PM
Did you ever get your kill switch mounted Steve? I think some test and tune is in order for next Wednesday. Maybe I can bring out the Bandit....lol.
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pmkin10r
Expert Class
Posts: 191
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posted May 07, 2006 01:09 AM
04-05 ZX-10R speak loudly carry big stick. 06 ZX-10R speak softly carry bigger stick.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted May 08, 2006 10:40 AM
I believe it is a matter of proper break-in and setup. A properly broken in bike with a properly lubricated chain with the right amount of oil and properly adjusted valves(after break in of course) will make much more HP than a bike fresh out of the crate. I know my 10 and 12 ran much better after a few thousand miles. So what we may be seeing is a bike that has been through a few tests.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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nitrous347
Parking Attendant
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posted May 09, 2006 12:06 AM
ted, I wasn't aware of any valve adjusment needs until 15,000 miles.Are you saying it needs to be done before that? I've got an '05 ZX-10 magma red ,I do notice some valvetrain noise,but i've been told that's normal.
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don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff
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salsa1
Needs a life
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posted May 09, 2006 06:04 AM
Ted wrote:
" believe it is a matter of proper break-in and setup. A properly broken in bike with a properly lubricated chain with the right amount of oil and properly adjusted valves(after break in of course) will make much more HP than a bike fresh out of the crate. I know my 10 and 12 ran much better after a few thousand miles. So what we may be seeing is a bike that has been through a few tests."
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Ted sounds very reasonable yet the ringer theory sounds just as belieivable... all these manufacturers are old old veterans in this marketing game.. they know HP sells.. I don't think we will ever find out if Kawasaki is placing ringers for tsport rider magazine..funny the gixer is low on power ; I would blame factory tolerances on that ...us readers don't get any internal classified information if there is any... so who really knows? all we can do is speculate; fishy Kawasaki getting so much power (again)...
I sure wouldn't mind my own Kawasaki making that much power totally stock tho..LOL.
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Salsa1
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mustmoto
Expert Class
e-famous
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posted May 09, 2006 06:51 AM
TedG is right on the money.
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Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba.... ---HST
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted May 09, 2006 07:04 AM
I'd love them to give ME a ringer bike...
heck... I'd take ANY bike 
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TedG
Moderator
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posted May 09, 2006 07:26 AM
quote:
ted, I wasn't aware of any valve adjusment needs until 15,000 miles.Are you saying it needs to be done before that? I've got an '05 ZX-10 magma red ,I do notice some valvetrain noise,but i've been told that's normal.
Here is the deal on the valves. You are correct about the 15000 and should stick to it. The valves will settle in to almost perfect adjustment and stop changing at about 15000, and that is good for us street riders. But if you want to make the most HP early on, one would probably want to adjust the valves to perfection. But doing so would require frequent adjusts (say every 3000 or so) because the valves have a tendency to tighten up as they mate to the valve seats and tight valves have a tendency to burn up, which is a bad thing.
Oh yes i forgot to mention synchronized throttle bodies, it doesn't help so much on WFO throttle but will firm up the partial throttle run up.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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salsa1
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posted May 09, 2006 07:57 AM
 Edited By: salsa1 on 9 May 2006 10:40
Suzuki , Honda and yamaha don't know how to set up a bike like Kawasaki does then?
Maybe they should spend more time on Kawasaki forums to learn how...lol
or maybe they are not really that interested in selling their bikes...possibly their marketing reasearch shows motorcycle magazine reviews and results like those found in "Sport Rider Magazines" don't influence anyone to buy sport bikes... of course...
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Salsa1
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted May 09, 2006 10:26 AM
The bikes aren't identical, each brand has a different power characteristic, peak HP is one thing but through the RPM range is another. 5hp between brands is not that much. Just cam timing can bring up peak at the expense of power elsewhere. There will always be discrepancies between brands, the ones that should worry us is discrepancies between what we buy and what is tested and published.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted May 09, 2006 11:32 AM
quote:
The bikes aren't identical, each brand has a different power characteristic, peak HP is one thing but through the RPM range is another. 5hp between brands is not that much. Just cam timing can bring up peak at the expense of power elsewhere. There will always be discrepancies between brands, the ones that should worry us is discrepancies between what we buy and what is tested and published.
What you say is very true. However, the problem is that the discrepancies between brands (read: Kawasaki and Suzuki) aren't showing up anywhere near the extent in the "real" world as they are in Sport Rider tests.
So maybe you're right....Kawasaki is giving "thoroughly maintained and massaged" test bikes to the so called journalists at SR.
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extremelean
Pro
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posted May 09, 2006 11:53 AM
Nothing massaged......just well tuned,,,, something ANY mechanically inclined human being can do.
Break-in is a huge part of it.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted May 09, 2006 12:16 PM
Edited By: TedG on 9 May 2006 13:38
quote:
Nothing massaged......just well tuned,,,, something ANY mechanically inclined human being can do.
Break-in is a huge part of it.
Hopefully you guys learned from the mistakes with the ZX12.
quote:
quote:
The bikes aren't identical, each brand has a different power characteristic, peak HP is one thing but through the RPM range is another. 5hp between brands is not that much. Just cam timing can bring up peak at the expense of power elsewhere. There will always be discrepancies between brands, the ones that should worry us is discrepancies between what we buy and what is tested and published.
What you say is very true. However, the problem is that the discrepancies between brands (read: Kawasaki and Suzuki) aren't showing up anywhere near the extent in the "real" world as they are in Sport Rider tests.
So maybe you're right....Kawasaki is giving "thoroughly maintained and massaged" test bikes to the so called journalists at SR.
The differences you are seeing are not by any means huge. Look at the Suzuki's power band, I hate to say it but it is impressive and if geared correctly it is probably faster in most venues. The impressive part is that it makes power lower down the RPM scale where the percentage is greater and has a very linear shape. Typically Hondas have less peak power where their focus is on ridability.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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salsa1
Needs a life
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posted May 09, 2006 01:27 PM
Motorcyclist just put out a liter bike comparo showing again the ZX-10R far ahead with 166.xx HP.; I just mention it cause it is indeed notable difference as far as I can tell. Not knocking Teds knowlege just that no street bike I ever heard of got the 164.4 hp stock the 2004 ZX-10R Kawasaki got in sport rider either... makes me no difference I like my 10R...
but ...is it impossible and proven no ringers are in play in these results found in sport Rider ? Are there any rules or people assigned to make sure these liter bikes are ordinary off the assembly line production models untouched?
I don't rule anything out myself ... we have no proof either way.......
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Salsa1
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted May 09, 2006 02:00 PM
I wish I had a copy of this month's Sport Rider here.....I seem to recall the difference being VERY significant between their test zx10r and gsxr1000. Something to the tune of 7 HP.
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TedG
Moderator
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posted May 09, 2006 03:13 PM
Edited By: TedG on 9 May 2006 16:16
Some of it may just be the dyno. I have seen dyno pulls on the same exact bike with nothing different but the day the pull was done, with a 2-2.5 hp difference. And the software that should have corrected it didn't. So just a pull on a good day may yield an extra 2 some odd HP plus 5 actual and maybe 7 isn't so out of line.
Not that I am trusting, but I really don't think they do anything more than careful break in and service. Now I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they break in and service multiple bikes and pick the one with the most HP. That to me would be the smart thing to do, and keep it above board. Lets face it, do enough bikes and you are bound to find a hot one.
I remember going to a Kawasaki school in the early 70s and them joking about the Suzuki water buffalo and all the hype about how it was going to smoke the H2. I had just been to the Suzuki School a few weeks before and they were massaging a GT750 for the magazines. Just a bit of careful port de-burring etc. Needless to say it didn't really help. A water buffalo is a water buffalo no matter how much you massaged it.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted May 09, 2006 04:38 PM
Ted,
The idea that Kawasaki dynos several stock bikes and picks the strongest of them all sounds most likely.
On a lighter note, I found this water buffalo in cycle trader earlier this week. Check out the speaker in the passenger backrest.....lol
http://adcache.cycletrader.com/5/2/4/83868424.htm
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted May 09, 2006 06:29 PM
Eric, that is an awesome speaker.
Ok quiz time. what kind of mags are those?
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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zx12adam
Member
Posts: 878
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posted May 09, 2006 06:47 PM
Edited By: zx12adam on 9 May 2006 19:49
Ringer bikes? I'd be willing to bet. Here's one way...
If I'm not mistaken in 600 Supersport, engine balancing isn't legal, have to use unmodified factory parts. However the factories, for example, would grab straight off the shelf 100 pistons/conrods/whatever, weigh them to get the slightest tolerances to a nats assholehair and match them up to the ones that weigh closest to the same, starting from the lightest. Do this for the whole engine and it will add up. Tear down the engine and yup, unmodified, stock, factory parts. Seems like alot to go through but if every squid picks up a Sportrider and sees that big 166 "towering over" those "weak" 158's, 159's etc. well...
...result sales.
Just wait until Sportrider wails a ZX14 to it's limiter! Their dyno seems to run high to begin with, and a possible ringer 14? 175? 180? Place your bets, the line starts out front the dealerships.
But then again it's all just speculation  In the real world 6 peak hp out of 160+ ain't shit enough to make much(if any) difference at all. Cutting down on the Big Macs, Whoppers, Tater Chips, Supreme Pizzas, and taking a mondo shit before a race would have the same effect. A gym membership and a trackday will more than make up for 6 or even 16 hp everytime.
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CBR1000RR
Best Literbike: Performance Bikes, Superbike, BIKE, MCN, Road Racing World, and Motorcycle USA
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted May 09, 2006 06:55 PM
quote:
Cutting down on the Big Macs, Whoppers, Tater Chips, Supreme Pizzas, and taking a mondo shit before a race would have the same effect. A gym membership and a trackday will more than make up for 6 or even 16 hp everytime.
Damn right about that Adam.....we found this out through our "controlled testing performed on a closed course."
It WILL be interesting to see what SR's 14 makes.
Ted, are those Comstar mags??
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zx12adam
Member
Posts: 878
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posted May 09, 2006 07:04 PM
Yeah, "Closed Course" of course.
And I think those wheels are the new Marriachissinni's found on 06 Ducatis
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CBR1000RR
Best Literbike: Performance Bikes, Superbike, BIKE, MCN, Road Racing World, and Motorcycle USA
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted May 09, 2006 08:39 PM
All the companies supplying test bikes go through them multiple times. Kawasaki does exactly what Suzuki, Honda, and Yamaha do. They break the bikes in properly and make all the optimum adjustments.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted May 09, 2006 09:31 PM
quote:
...nats assholehair...
What is that in RCH?
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