rknrl
Parking Attendant
Posts: 16
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posted January 18, 2006 12:11 PM
Break-in (First valve adjustment)
Ok, I've seen some of the past break-in procedure post and I'll try not to open that can of worms. I've elected to loosely follow Kawi's instructions, but avoid lugging the bike at all as well as avoid constant rpm's for too long. Also, doing some healthy acceleration and deceleration to put some load on the engine.
I'm currently sitting on 400 miles on the odometer and I'm trying to decide when to have the valves adjusted as well as other "break-in" maintenance. The manual says to have the valves adjusted at 500 miles, but I'm wondering if 1000 miles might be better. Thoughts?
Also, what else would you other owners have done after break-in?
BTW, I'm changing oil at 500 miles and avoiding synthetics.
TIA.
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Java
  
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ikezixxer
Expert Class
Posts: 268
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posted January 18, 2006 05:05 PM
valves adjusted? I didnt do that? how much does it cost? I just did the oil changes...uh oh
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zeta xray
Expert Class
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posted January 18, 2006 09:39 PM
I haven't checked personally, but other reliable sources have said the 1st valve adjustment for the ZX10 is at something more like 15,000 miles.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted January 18, 2006 10:39 PM
Not only that, they seem to be holding their adjustment to 15k. Wasn't that long ago a Kaw would have toasted every valve in the head if not adjusted at 600 miles and every few k thereafter. My tuner, a true Kaw loyalist, thought I was mad to wait for the 15k interval. Till he did a 10R at 15k. Apparently the procedure is a royal pain in the labia.
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ikezixxer
Expert Class
Posts: 268
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posted January 19, 2006 01:23 AM
Do it at 10k and call it even...
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ikezixxer
Expert Class
Posts: 268
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posted January 19, 2006 01:24 AM
how much does it cost on average?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted January 19, 2006 08:33 AM
DO NOT TOUCH THOSE VALVES UNTIL THE RECOMMENDED ADJUSTMENT TIME!!!
If you do adjust them too early you will find tight valves, which can lead to burnt valves and seats as well as poor performance. The engineers calculate how much the the valve will settle into the seat and adjust accordingly. You will find historically that they have been accurate. One reason the duration is so long is the fact that the valves are very light and have little spring pressure so it takes a very long time for them to settle in. Not like some big old Harley valve hammering itself to death.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
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Big Daddy
Zone Head
Posts: 616
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posted January 19, 2006 02:50 PM
ya rekon?
BD
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salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
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posted January 20, 2006 07:24 AM
Ever wonder how many miles a Harley motor lasts on average?
I guess I don't hehe
Dang now I am wondering...any one know??
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Salsa1
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junior s
Pro
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Posts: 1644
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posted January 20, 2006 07:47 AM
Running ? Not so long . Showing - way longer as long as there is no oil in it to leak on the carpet 
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted January 25, 2006 10:18 AM
I have a 14 coming. I won't even light the bike off until I have a base number on the valves. I don't follow book intervals. If that were my bike at 400 miles, the valve cover would be off checking things out.
The first oil change would occur under 50 miles, not 500. I change oil a lot. No need for syn base.
Ted says, "If you do adjust them too early you will find tight valves..."
Exactly what I'm looking for... Tight valves with less than 500 miles on the head.
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E-tard
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 25, 2006 12:00 PM
 Edited By: TedG on 25 Jan 2006 12:01
I should have said you will find tight valves at the first adjustment interval. And if you must adjust them early NEVER adjust a loose valve.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
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speedgene
Zone Head
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posted January 25, 2006 05:06 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 25 Jan 2006 17:08
quote:
INEVER adjust a loose valve.
What is considered loose? If you are talking right at the edge of book range, but within max tolerance, then yeah, that's loose. Hypothetical....book calls for .006" but no wider than .008"....still within book range. In that case, yeah, that is a loose valve, and needs .002" taken out.
Sure, you could run it 'loose' at .008". If you have the other 3 cylinders running at .006"... then you have one cylinder off performance. Not good running loose looking at it that way.
Check the valves, and run them all within the ideal 'book' range... not loose and not tight, but within "running spec."
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 25, 2006 07:07 PM
That loose valve will tighten up over time. If you adjust it too early it will end up too tight and a loose valve is much better than a too tight valve. You live with the imbalance until the suggested adjustment interval. Listen to me, do not touch them until they say.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
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speedgene
Zone Head
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posted January 25, 2006 11:17 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 25 Jan 2006 23:19
I do not know the Kaw product line, but I do know a little bit about valve life, and lash adjustments. If the valve cover is off, and there are a few valves that are out of ideal spec, then change them now!
rknrl, I know you are seeing two approaches when confronted with a decision to adjust now, later, leave a loose valve alone, or even to wait for more engine hours to clock?
Nether loose, or tight valves are acceptable IMO. Address both ASAP. Check first 400 miles, then every 5,000 miles after that...IMO.
No offense to Ted, but I don't listen to a book. I read what the valves are telling me at the head.
You need a "baseline"...start with the first 400 mile valve check.
Sometimes you just have to cut the book schedules in half (or more) if you want high end, over the top, anal type maintenance on a high performance bike.
I know advances in metallurgy happen as bike design progresses, and most bikes today are getting high mileage lash intervals.
Checking more frequently makes the bike perform better. You can inspect upper parts for wear with shorter interval checks. There are a lot of advantages setting valves sooner than book.
Riding around with "loose valves" will harm the engine in more ways than you think.
If you want to discuss the finer points why NOT to run a "loose" valve lash, feel free to extend the thread.
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 26, 2006 08:00 AM
The point you are missing is the fact that is you leave the valves alone until the the recommended interval. you will find that they have come very close to spec. Kawasaki has been historically good at setting the clearances so that as the valve train wears in the clearances are damn close.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
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rknrl
Parking Attendant
Posts: 16
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posted January 26, 2006 08:36 AM
Ted,
Straighten me out here. You're saying to skip that first check at 500 miles, right? You mentioned to leave the valves alone until the recommended interval, but the owner's manual suggests 500 miles for the first valve adjustment.
So, are you saying to skip that first recommended valve adjustment at 500, but follow Kawi's suggested intervals after that?
Thanks.
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Java
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 26, 2006 09:29 AM
I am not saying to skip anything. I am of the impression that the first check is 5000 miles (or something like that) but if it says 500 do it. What I am saying is if you do adjust the valves before the recommended interval you will most likely end up with tight valves.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
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speedgene
Zone Head
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posted January 26, 2006 09:37 AM
Edited By: speedgene on 26 Jan 2006 10:51
The point is, there was a question asked about valve adjustments? When I hear the ancient expression "Better too loose than too tight"... really needs to be put to bed.
First mistake running "loose" is that the engineers did design the clearance specs with this 'built-in" efficiency factor. Within those "clearance" parameters is where the engine was designed for maximum performance.
A "loose clearance" does not address; Over heating, valve/seat face damage, flow restrictions, valve train balance... just to name a few.
1.Over heating factors in... by not allowing the valve to open wide enough to move the hot spent exhaust from leaving the cylinder chamber. On the other side of the coin, there is not enough flow of cool air/fuel to help keep the heat range stable.
2. Flow restrictions are compromised. Take the loose clearance and use an analogy of water flow. Open a valve that is fully extended and let fluid flow for one minute. With a less open "loose valve," see what kind of flow you get with a narrow opening of the valve... Which flowed more liquid in one minute?
3. Valve/seat face damage happens when the carbon builds up between the valve seat and valve face. What happens here is the valve sits on the seat longer, which then cools the carbon between the valve and seat. A valve running at ideal settings will sit on the seat and continue to stay hot...so it can "burn off the carbon." If running with "loose" settings, the carbon then glows like a hot ember between the seat and valve. Ever pull a valve and notice those burnt spots around the 45 cut of the valve? What happens is the glowing carbon welds part of the valve surface with the seat surface between itself. When the valve opens, the glowing weld between the valve and face separate. This action vaporizes both surfaces that was once occupied by built-up carbon. A loose valve is too cool to burn off the carbon deposits!
4. You have one valve closing, and another valve getting ready to open. Instead of each spring having more "balance" with an ideal clearance, you now compromise one valve waiting to open. The lag time in degrees upsets the transactional spring tension between cam lobes.
With those factors exposed, would you still run a "loose" clearance? Bottom line, it's your bike, your maintenance schedules, your decision how you want your engine tuned? I just want to show there is no advantage running loose, but creating quite a number of "Negative Variables" you could easily solve by a simple valve adjustment.
So my question to you Ted: Would you still endorse running a "loose valve" to the members here?
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 26, 2006 09:53 AM
Only until the valves have seated and the recommended interval has been achieved. After that they should be set right on. Given a choice of loose or tight, I will take loose for the following reasons. A tight valve will tend to burn the seats and will not seal, causing poor performance. A loose valve will cause a slight loss of performance because of the decreased duration and lift (although a couple of thou would be debatable). Also the scale of these valves (being so tiny) the amount of extra wear and tear on the cam and bucket would be minimal.
All I am saying is they are set loose from the factory so that they do not become too tight before the recommended first adjustment. And usually at that time the valves are right on or only slightly off.
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Ted
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speedgene
Zone Head
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posted January 26, 2006 10:08 AM
Edited By: speedgene on 26 Jan 2006 10:13
quote:
What I am saying is if you do adjust the valves before the recommended interval you will most likely end up with tight valves.
If you check clearances at 500 miles, how can a valve tighten up? Didn't you catch it before you let the bike run up to it's next book interval?
If you frequent the settings more often, you can follow each valve's movement heading in either direction.
This is part of "blueprinting" the valve settings. It's all about "PERFORMANCE." Personally, I will try to keep my investment running at "Peak" performance. I as anyone else sitting on a 14 is a "marked Man/Wo." I don't want to beat a Busa, I want to "STOMP" on the Busa!
Staying on top of the valve settings can't hurt.
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trenace
Needs a job
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posted January 26, 2006 10:39 AM
What, the 10R has a 500 mile recommended adjustment??
Can that claim be verified?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted January 26, 2006 10:52 AM
How can it tighten up? The valve seat and valve wear into each other and that will move the valve toward the cam. The cam and bucket will not wear at a rate to keep up with the initial break in of those seats. I am not guessing here, I was a factory trained Kawasaki mechanic, and this subject was a big deal with warranty claims involving burnt valves and seats. People were adjusting them too early and burning things up. An overhead cam motor doesn't have all that much hardware between the valve and the cam to take up the slack.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 26, 2006 11:00 AM
I just looked at the service manual and the first interval is 15000 miles. They didn't just pull that number out of their ass. There is a reason for waiting that long and it is not to mess up the engine.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
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2009 Concours Black ABS
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speedgene
Zone Head
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posted January 26, 2006 11:47 AM
quote:Ted
"All I am saying is they are set loose from the factory so that they do not become too tight before the recommended first adjustment. And usually at that time the valves are right on or only slightly off."
The first interval is 15K. You pop the cover and check the clearances against the book....right? Hypothetical numbers in the book says .006" is the ideal clearance to set. Your feeler gauge reads 14 out of 16 are within spec. I'm sure you came across that many times. All you needed were a few shims to bring back (the other 2) to specs.
Now how could people be setting their valves too soon if at 15K you are finding 14 valves are within spec? Are you also saying the valves were set with more "factory" clearance for break-in? Explain how 14 shims didn't need changing? Explain how 14 shims didn't move since the bike was new? Where is that "loose" clearance from the factory?
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E-tard
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