trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 22, 2005 09:31 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 22 Dec 2005 21:36
Kawsaki to produce ZX-10RR
From MCN:
KAWASAKI ZX-10RR ON THE CARDS
Kawasaki takes bonkers superbike to even wilder new extremes...
KAWASAKI is planning a wild World Superbike for the road, based on its new ZX-10R.
The new ZX-10RR will be the firm's most extreme road bike ever - with a specification that would shame some MotoGP bikes. Although details have yet to be finalised, Kawasaki engineers told MCN that the new bike could include fly-by-wire throttle, traction control and a big-bang engine.
Even though the new ZX-10R has not yet hit the dealers, the firm is keen to take the concept even further.
In an exclusive interview with MCN, Kawasaki engineer Yasuhisa Okabe said: "We are always looking forward to what is next for Kawasaki. We're very keen to get new technology on future road bikes and although the ZX-10R has already achieved all the goals we set for it, we are already working on the next bike. If I could spend even more money we would give it lightweight wheels and carbon-fibre bodywork."
Though Kawasaki would not reveal more exact technical specifications, it's known that informal talks have already taken place between Okabe and a Japanese Kawasaki MotoGP boss about using big-bang techonology on the current ZX-10R and the RR version set to follow. The new ZX-RR MotoGP bike has already tested in Malaysia with a big-bang firing order and initial impressions suggest this engine will be used in races next year.
With the extra traction the big-bang firing order would bring, along with an estimated 200bhp from the RR's motor, the ZX-10RR would be the fastest production road bike money could buy. And bosses admit they've already worked on fly-by-wire throttles and traction control for the next generation of Kawasaki road bikes.
The chassis is likely to be impressive, too. Traditionally, Kawasaki has used Kayaba suspension on its sports bikes, but Ohlins and Kawasaki are keen to work together more - following the fitment of an Ohlins steering damper as standard on the 2006 ZX-10R.
It's also likely to use lightweight wheels and carbon fibre bodywork to cut the bike's weight from the current 185kg to 175kg.
Early tests of the new bike have already taken place at Kawasaki's Autopolis test track in Japan, but ultimately the future of the project depends on the race success of factory rider Shinya Nakano and PSG-1 Kawasaki WSB riders Chris Walker and Regis Laconi.
Okabe added: "If we have the race success Kawasaki deserves then maybe next year we could see this bike on the road."
Firm targets 2007 WSB title
ACCORDING to our sources, the biggest reason to upgrade the ZX-10R is because
the factory are determined to win the WSB championship by 2007.
MCN's source said: "The new bike is likely to have fully-adjustable swingarm
pivots and anything else necessary to homologate it for the 2007 series."
"At the moment the bike is missing the ability to move the pivot point to help find
traction, reduce the amount of wheelies under power and help overall stability."
Kawasaki will need to make at least 500 road-going examples of the RR in order to
qualify for the WSB championship's homologation rules.
  
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted December 22, 2005 11:09 PM
quote:
...with a specification that would shame some MotoGP bikes.
why do people always have to take it to hyperbole?
and what's the advantage of fly-by-wire?
|
gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted December 22, 2005 11:36 PM
Where do I sign up for this? Aw fuck it I'm going to the shop tomorrow and place an order for the first one 
|
tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
|
posted December 22, 2005 11:49 PM
Edited By: tuusinii on 22 Dec 2005 23:51
quote:
and what's the advantage of fly-by-wire?
I think that the advance in fly-by-wire is smoothing the throttle response when You have a lot of power. Gives You little more power because You don't need secondary butterflyies and still maintain better response. It also makes it more easy to have traction control and different maps for wet, etc.
Basically it can make the bike easier to ride - wich equals better times on track - sooner or later.
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted December 23, 2005 05:10 AM
OMFG!
When I getting my 7R, I had a chance to get a 7RR instead and passed. I would be selling the house, the wife and the kids for a 10RR.
Okay... so the housing market is going to shit, I'm not married and my kids are in their late 20's (might not be too cooperative in being "sold"). Still, I'd find some way to get one and yes... I'd ride it. I couldn't afford two bikes, so its not like I'd be putting on a pedestal in the livingroom.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
zxhoya
Zone Head
Posts: 631
|
posted December 23, 2005 07:29 AM
Edited By: zxhoya on 23 Dec 2005 07:31
Ive heard of big bang engines before ( Mick Doohan's Honda Moto GP bike back in the day ), but never understood exactly what it was vs. a normal engine. Could someone please give a simple explanation of the difference?
Did anyone know that Yamaha owend Ohlins?
____________
''The angle of my dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of my meat'' Will Ferrell
|
gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted December 23, 2005 07:47 AM
The BIG BANG motor has something to do with hte firing order of the motor the best I understand what I've heard. The power producing pulses are softened making the motor much more tractable upon corner exits. And all the while NOT having a negitive effect on max Hp. Speaking of Mick Doohan I would give a lunf to see him riding against Rossi and both men at the top of their game. Why do the great one only come along 1 at a time? Why
|
blueford
Needs a job
Posts: 2984
|
posted December 23, 2005 07:52 AM
The cylinders fire very close together rather than spread out, not cool for a street bike, but great for a track bike.
The problem with four-cylinder bikes in their conventional even firing arrangement is that once the rear tire starts spinning, because of the nature of the engine, it's hard to stop.
When using a 'Big-Bang' engine, the rear tire has a certain amount of time, in terms of crank rotation, when there are no power pulses trying to spin it up. This allows the rear tire to effectively slow down between pulses and find grip again by correcting its speed to the speed of the track.
|
gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted December 23, 2005 07:58 AM
Thanks Jet I knew it was something like that  I haven't payed attention to talk about it since the Doohan days.
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted December 23, 2005 08:18 AM
This will be my next bike.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
2OLD2BFAST
Novice Class
Posts: 36
|
posted December 23, 2005 08:21 AM
Big bang certainly does not mean more power than our old fashioned "screamer" engines, but they sure will hook up better. If I'm not mistaken the only team running an in-line 4 in MotoGP that wasn't firing in Big Bang order was WCM, and I'm pretty sure their bike qualified at Laguna with slower lap times than some of the Superbikes!
Since the fire like a V-4, they'll be a little torquey compared to what we're used to, but the sound is probably going to be the most noticiable change. It'll be kind of wierd hearing in-line fours running around on the street that sound like somewhat off-key V-fours, but it is inevitable and I applaud Kaw for going there as it is the only way they can get to the top of the racing world again.
I can only hope that Kaw beats Yamaha to the punch on this one as the next gen R-1 is almost a lock to be firing big bang style based on their HUGE MotoGP success since they change to both Rossi and that firing order!
Now the question is, do you buy the '06, or hold the '04 waiting for an RR opportunity?
|
Rubber Pants
Zone Head
Posts: 798
|
posted December 23, 2005 08:28 AM
They make it...............I buy it! 
____________
"Ya Gotta Have Big Ones!"
speeddemons.com
|
ninerrider01
Novice Class
Posts: 70
|
posted December 23, 2005 08:48 AM
Another interesting tidbit is where the interest came from.
V-twins dominated flat-track racing, and later with better street-tire development v-twins were found to have better rideability at the edge of adhesion. A factory studying this determined the average pro racer can react quickly enough to correct a spin during the coasting period between power-pulses inherent to a v-twin, but not quickly enough on a smoother running motor. So they tried the big-bang motor. A 4 cylinder motor with two power pulses close together, (feeling like one big bang of power to the rider) then a period of coasting time until the next power pulses.
|
trackwak
Novice Class
Posts: 42
|
posted December 23, 2005 09:01 AM
The Virgin Yamaha British Superbike team ran Big Bang engines in their R1's this season and I dont think they gained anything from using them, Tommy Hill seemed to do well with the new engine but I heard a rumour that they are changing for 2006.
They sound like Ducati's not in line fours, it doesnt sound right.
|
beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
|
posted December 23, 2005 09:14 AM
Was the 7RR worth it at the time it came out??
|
zxhoya
Zone Head
Posts: 631
|
posted December 23, 2005 09:42 AM
quote:
Another interesting tidbit is where the interest came from.
V-twins dominated flat-track racing, and later with better street-tire development v-twins were found to have better rideability at the edge of adhesion. A factory studying this determined the average pro racer can react quickly enough to correct a spin during the coasting period between power-pulses inherent to a v-twin, but not quickly enough on a smoother running motor. So they tried the big-bang motor. A 4 cylinder motor with two power pulses close together, (feeling like one big bang of power to the rider) then a period of coasting time until the next power pulses.
This is very interesting. Your explanation best illustrates the big bang engine for me. I would love to see a side-by-side pic of the two four cyl engines. I'm assuming that the difference between the big bang and traditional engine is accomplished by the crankshaft?
So I'm also assuming the the firing order of the traditional engine is 1-2-3-4?
So would that mean that the big-bang is ie. 1&4-2&3 or 1&3-2&4 for engine balance, I'm beginning to see why some of you are very excited about this, virtually a 4 cyl V-twin. Please correct me on the incorrect points. Thanks.
____________
''The angle of my dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of my meat'' Will Ferrell
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 23, 2005 09:49 AM
quote:
quote:
...with a specification that would shame some MotoGP bikes.
why do people always have to take it to hyperbole?
and what's the advantage of fly-by-wire?
Not necessarily an untrue statement -- WCM for example, perhaps Aprilia. I agree it was an unnecessary statement but indeed not all MotoGP bikes have all the features named.
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 23, 2005 09:52 AM
Another interesting aspect of a big-bang street engine would be, at least judging from sound on TV, these motors sound as if they're turning much slower than they are.
So it's quite possible that the street rider would tend in many situations to select a gear or two lower because of the motor sounding so relaxed at those higher rpms, and thus have more on tap. Particularly in urban situations for example, but maybe to some extent across the board when "cruising" as opposed to being 100% serious for speed anyway (in which case the effect is irrelevant because a taller gear is not then being chosen on account of engine sound.)
|
gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted December 23, 2005 09:52 AM
The firing order is 1-2-4-3 typically
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 23, 2005 02:35 PM
You might want to check your back issues of Roadracing World. They've done some very good in depth articles on big bang/alternative firing orders.
D.
|
nedragr
Zone Head
Posts: 504
|
posted December 23, 2005 02:47 PM
quote:
Was the 7RR worth it at the time it came out??
Had a 92 that I picked up back in 96 with 77 miles on it. Paided 6k for it from a dealer in Illinois. Above 6000 rpms's she'd work quite well, but the flat slides for street use just never seemed to be the ticket. If you ham fisted it, she'd take a big gulp of air and she'd go lame. You had to learn to roll the throttle on if ya wanted it to go.
One of those bikes I wish I'd just parked to the side though??
I was lucky to get $4000 for it when I sold it. All the kiiddie's wanted something to haul their girls around on.
Kie @ http://www.redlabelmoto.com/ has one but it's way over priced.
____________
Real racebikes run premix!!
http://www.bikepics.com/members/nedragr/
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted December 23, 2005 04:44 PM
quote:
quote:
Was the 7RR worth it at the time it came out??
Had a 92 that I picked up back in 96 with 77 miles on it. Paided 6k for it from a dealer in Illinois. Above 6000 rpms's she'd work quite well, but the flat slides for street use just never seemed to be the ticket. If you ham fisted it, she'd take a big gulp of air and she'd go lame. You had to learn to roll the throttle on if ya wanted it to go.
One of those bikes I wish I'd just parked to the side though??
I was lucky to get $4000 for it when I sold it. All the kiiddie's wanted something to haul their girls around on.
Kie @ http://www.redlabelmoto.com/ has one but it's way over priced.
Those flat slide carbs had accelerator pumps in them to counteract that. Proprely prepared the 7rr would have no hesitation whatsoever. They did require a lot of maintanance.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
Famous1
Expert Class
Posts: 402
|
posted December 23, 2005 07:57 PM
here's an mpeg of the fly-by-wire throttle on the 2006 r6
http://www.motorfreaks.nl/fsget.php?id=15128
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 23, 2005 08:29 PM
Edited By: trenace on 23 Dec 2005 22:01
The Virgin "big bang" motor was done the simplest way possible, by leaving the crankshaft alone and modifying only the camshafts, ignition, and fuelling. So instead of 1, 2, 4, 3 the firing order became 1 + 4, 2 + 3.
However, MotoGP engine development programs have always spoken of trying many different crank configurations. So it's really not a fair comparison between the Virgin motor and the MotoGP efforts.
My own thoughs on it (which may be bogus) are that actually it's undesirable to have actual REVERSALS of engine torque. Do we really want to alternate between the engine driving the rear wheel while for example 1+4 are firing, and engine braking the rear wheel as pistons 2 + 3 enter the compression stroke?
That doesn't sound best.
I do NOT know what the MotoGP teams are doing. But to me it would make more sense to have the alternation between producing power and approximately-torque-neutral states, rather than having very strong engine braking states inbetween double-strength power pulses.
So that might be achieved for example by delaying 1, advancing 4, delaying 2, and advancing 3, which would give pauses between the end of one 720 degree cycle and the start of the next, and between the front and back halves of the 720 degree cycle. (Specifically, a greater gap than usual between the firing of 3 and the firing of 1, and between the firing of and the firing of 2. But not so much so that there's ever the upper part of a compression stroke anywhere without a power stroke occurring elsewhere to drive it.)
Or possibly by even greater delaying 1, a little delaying 4, slightly advancing 2, and greater delaying of 3, thus introducing only one "pause" in the 720 degree cycle.
The concept being to still have power strokes going to drive compression strokes in all cases, but to work one or two gaps into the 720 degree cycle that would be approximately torque neutral rather than having power delivered almost continuously.
If that's what they're doing, it would explain why they speak of testing "many configurations" as many possible amounts of delay and advance could be tested, as well as those two general patterns.
Actually I also wonder if the whole thing isn't a little bit of silliness. I read some research somewhere on I think aircraft tires where it was found that VIBRATION can greatly enhance grip.
Is what "big bang" is doing really just introducing vibration to the rear tire via the chain and thus enhancing traction, rather than really depending on "rest periods" for the tire? If so, there may be a better way to deliver traction-enhancing vibration to the tire than by screwing with the firing order. For example, simply a device adding pulsing to the chain?
|
tinhead
Expert Class
Posts: 203
|
posted December 23, 2005 11:04 PM
The fly by wire throttle advantage is that it makes traction control much more workable, leaving everything to software and nothing to the rider's (often flawed) judgement.
Big Bang in most inline 4's, from what I've been able to glean, is actually better described as LONG BANG, 2 big pulses caused by having 2 cylinders fire close (within 10 degrees) of each other, rather than simultaneously.
From what I saw at Laguna this year, watching the Kawasakis going up the hill after turn 6, and exiting the corkscrew down towards Rainey Curve, the GP bikes weren't using traction control, buzzing the rear tire up at will, much more than any other bike.
I'll leave it to the physicists to show the problems, HUGE problems, of balancing a big bang motor. The service life is so short on the crank and cases from the weird vibes that I can't see how Big Bang could be incorporated into a streetbike sold with a warrrantee.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC