philmy3rdleg
Expert Class
Posts: 209
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posted December 05, 2005 09:06 AM
Max is a great rider and has tons of experience on the two bikes that have won the last five GP's. The least he can do is help further devolopment of the ZXRR if not put it on the podium once or twice. I think it will have more to do with Bridgestone than Max anyway.
  
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timsterc
Novice Class
Posts: 71
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posted December 06, 2005 06:01 AM
I'm a real anti-Max type bloke (I just don't like him), but if he can develop the bikes, then maybe he's worth the money. No matter what, I'll still be shouting for Shinya.
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Shiney side up,
Sticky side down.
;o)
   
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wheeliekev
Expert Class
Posts: 209
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posted December 06, 2005 06:19 AM
I cant stand Max, but he can race a bike, he's probably getting his last chance so should come out fighting, I hope so anyway so he can finish on a high, you dont have to like someone to respect them.
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sirwood10
Novice Class
Posts: 55
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posted December 06, 2005 01:30 PM
kaw needs a real rider to win champianships , there the fastest bikes on the road but there always getting beat on the track , it aint the bike it's the rider and they need to step up there game with some true riders who will rep kaw like it suppose to be reped
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FP 10R
Expert Class
Fast Learner
Posts: 212
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posted December 06, 2005 09:17 PM
S10,
If you think the Kawi is equal to the Honda or Yamaha you are sadly mistaken better than the current Suzuki ? "yes" you can't confuse what is made for the road and what passes for a GP bike.
The real difference between the Kawi and the rest of them is called CUBIC Dollars, I would wager if you put Rossi on the Kawi and ran him in a GP he would be lucky to place. The Ninja although a great bike is currently no match for the other bikes it lacks top end power and top speed at it's current stage of development based on 05!
The Yamaha is currently about 10-13 kmh down on the Hondas and they are down about 10 kmh on Ducati so the Kawi is somewhere between the Yamaha and Suzuki in outright speed.
Once you have the power and speed you need to get it to the ground and in a form that you can harness Kawi development has been tiny in comparison to Honda and Yamaha, data is only feed back from two riders they are developing tyres in conjunction with Bridgstone at the same time it just goes on and on.
I think considering the outlay in money terms and the short development time to date Kawasaki has done a remarkable job in its GP racing debut, the 06 version is yet to have any comment on how it performs and if Biaggi is a starter weather he will have any great influence on the teams results during the season.
I would dearly love to see Kawasaki on the top step during the year but its a big ask in reality consistent top 5 is more likely and in itself a big step forward.
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"Life is not a rehearsal so make the most of it" Carefully
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted December 06, 2005 11:05 PM
They all make huge power. The clever engineers can make it useable. I remember Rossi working his ass off on the M1 to pass a pack of Hondas in a tight section, then look over to watch them motor past on a long straight. He grabbed enough throttle to lift the front wheel in a futile effort to keep up. At about 200 mph! Just rolled the front into the air. Fucking incredible how much power they make. Also incredible how much better the Honda was at using that power.
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human
Novice Class
Posts: 53
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posted December 07, 2005 05:05 PM
few more hours for the news ?
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 07, 2005 06:45 PM
Couple of threads on it both in Sportbike Zone and Smackhouse.
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extremelean
Pro
Posts: 1651
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posted December 07, 2005 08:03 PM
Looks like it aint gonna happen....look here--->>> http://www.crash.net/uk/en/news_view.asp?cid=6&nid=123001
BUMM DEAL!!!
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jimzx9r
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted December 07, 2005 11:43 PM
Well that sucks. I hate the guy, but I wanted to see what he could do on the ZXrr.
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Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted December 08, 2005 07:52 AM
too bad Honda got Pedrosa, I would like to see him on a ZXRR in 06.....
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted December 08, 2005 09:06 AM
quote:
Well that sucks. I hate the guy, but I wanted to see what he could do on the ZXrr.
Ditto.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Big Daddy
Zone Head
Posts: 616
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posted December 08, 2005 09:15 AM
ahhhhhhhhhhh fugg it move on next story.
Maybe they should consider TedG for the position ya rekon??
BD
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human
Novice Class
Posts: 53
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posted December 08, 2005 09:49 AM
so what then of Max ? is it really that big a deal that Bstone couldn't support ? or did Honda make a call to the Jap tire manuf. ?
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philmy3rdleg
Expert Class
Posts: 209
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posted December 08, 2005 02:32 PM
That's stupid. Bridgestone should take advantage of any rider that wants to help help in advancement. Even Biaggi. Michelin and Dunlop have the best 20 riders in the world testing for them and Perelli has the entire WSB. What does Bridgestone have? Two guys and another two on crap bikes. They came along way but the others are keep moving.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 08, 2005 02:51 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 8 Dec 2005 15:01
I've also posted it elsewhere, but it's obvious from this Bridgestone is not serious about MotoGP, has no intention whatsoever of matching let alone surpassing Michelin. They just want to "be there too" and collect a little data but clearly aren't going to put in the work required to win.
No wonder Michelin has, I think, every single MotoGP victory but one, and virtually all of the podiums as well.
It is also by the way not just Kawasaki with Biaggi that got turned down -- costing Kawasaki over 8 million dollars net of sponsorship money after Biaggi's salary as well as a very real possibility of moving well ahead in MotoGP -- but also Tamada. He had wanted to switch back to Bridgestone, not having done nearly as well this season as last (I would bet for differerent reasons, but reasons they can't pin down, so it's easy for them to wonder if maybe it's the tires), but Bridgestone refused him as well.
He's the only guy that ever won a MotoGP for them, and is riding what is considered the best bike out there or if not, certainly a very close second best, the Honda RCV, and Bridgestone didn't want to bother making tires for him either. No, they already had their plans for how many MotoGP tires they wanted to make for 2006.
It's clear they have no intent of catching up to Michelin in MotoGP, in terms of results (wins, podiums, points) or even coming remotely close to it. They just want to "be there too" and collect a little data, no more, IMO. It's obviously been a mistake for anyone to associate with them in MotoGP, unless they want to lose, or want to get the shaft when they need their supplier to step to the plate to accomodate an extra rider. It certainly cost Kawasaki big-time, and perhaps has been costing big-time in results all along, too.
I agree, very stupid. Even given not being serious and therefore not caring about losing a rider that quite plausibly would have gotten better results than most or all other Bridgestone riders, it's stupid because they probably have no idea what this has done to their reputation. Teams and companies in MotoGP have to be looking at this and coming to a new opinion on how much Bridgestone can be relied on and how serious they are in this endeavour -- the answer to both, not much.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted December 08, 2005 04:59 PM
quote:
ahhhhhhhhhhh fugg it move on next story.
Maybe they should consider TedG for the position ya rekon??
BD
It would be embarrassing posting the slowest lap ever on a MotoGp bike. But well worth it, what I wouldn't give to get a few laps on one.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Big Daddy
Zone Head
Posts: 616
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posted December 09, 2005 10:58 AM
i'm with ya on that f'sho!!
BD
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted December 09, 2005 11:24 PM
Boycott Bridgestone?
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 10, 2005 08:50 AM
Edited By: trenace on 10 Dec 2005 09:02
Problem is the time window is so narrow between now and next season. It was long enough, reasonably, to have been adequate notice for Bridgestone that more tires were needed -- I don't thikn it's a reasonable excuse that they didn't have enough time. But it's not enough time for a Internet campaign to be mounted for Kawasaki fans to get a few thousands e-mails to Bridgestone expressing how pissed off they are by Bridgestone fucking the Kawasaki MotoGP team over such a bullshit reason as they "just dont' want to make more tires," then for Bridgestone to consider the matter, etc... By that time it would be too late. Camel for example will already have moved their sponsorship elsewhere by then. Next season's plans have to be made now. Probably within days Camel will announce their money being dedicated elsewhere.
So the only effect would be punitive, not actually getting the situation resolved.
However, is it a factor towards my preferring Michelins or Pirellis? Yes, Bridgestone has left a bad taste by doing this. If they made a way better tire I wouldn't let that override things, but at best they only make similarly good anyhow. (And not as good a tire in MotoGP racing.)
Now, I think Kawasaki should consider giving Bridgestone the payback in the bottom line for costing them $8 million plus possibly some much better MotoGP finishes and possibly better development of the ZX-RR with this shit move. Just might be possible to not buy as many Bridgestones for OEM and substitute Michelins or Pirellis instead in the future. I would do that, as well as attempt to move the MotoGP team to Michelin for sure.
Would be interesting to have a top Bridgestone executive demanding of whoever made this decision: "You dumb fuck! Why have we lost $20 million in OEM tire sales this year to Kawasaki -- because you, you shameful creature, you JUST DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE ANOTHER SET OF TIRES FOR THEIR NEW TOP RIDER and thus fucked over their MotoGP team? Here is a sword! Honor demands seppuku NOW!!!" 
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted December 10, 2005 12:55 PM
...or perhaps their internal focus group data has revealed a lackluster performance by Biaggi and his subsequent blaming of the tires would torpedo years of work building brand image for top performance consumers.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 10, 2005 02:45 PM
Edited By: trenace on 10 Dec 2005 15:25
Then why did they do Tamada that way? He won a MotoGP for them last year, only guy ever to do so.
I don't know about "lackluster performance" -- he was fifth in points for the year, so fair enough to call him the 5th best rider in MotoGP, two places and 23 points ahead of for example Gibernau, only 6 points from 4th place, with four podiums, with only Rossi, Melandri, and Hayden doing better in that regard: all this much better than any Bridgestone rider did last year. And very often on-camera as being a challenger in the front group or for the lead, very much unlike any Bridgestone rider. And his other years have been much better, but even 2005's results alone would represent a big step up for the Bridgestone squad.
However I don't think they're interested in seriously trying to match Michelin in MotoGP. Their behavior sure doesn't indicate it, but instead obviously indicates no team can rely on them when they need Bridgestone to step up to the plate to accomodate what they consider a big opportunity for them (and indubitably is at least in terms of cash.)
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jimmihaffa
Novice Class
Posts: 47
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posted December 10, 2005 08:31 PM
I think a look at how the MotoGP season unfolded is more telling of Biaggi's performance and his potential for future successes in the class. He had a couple of good showings early on in the season in which he was able to score big points. His performance tailed off markedly through the course of the season. I distinctly remember Biaggi being unable to keep pace with Nakano in several races, this inspite of the fact that the top end on the RC211 was at least 10-15 kph higher on pretty much any given track. I'm fairly confident that Biaggi would not supplant Nakano as the top Kawasaki jock, so I really don't see the point in signing him other than of course the sponsorship dollars.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 10, 2005 08:36 PM
Edited By: trenace on 10 Dec 2005 20:39
I may be wrong, my take however is that Biaggi has a weakness in not being able to handle front-end problems as well as some other pilots. His style I think is very dependent on a planted front end. When he has that, he flies... when he does not or doesn't have the confidence in it, he does not. The ZX-RR has, in the Kawasaki MotoGP team website, had a number of weaknesses discussed but front end stability and confidence is not one of them.
You may be right... but also possibly he may be much faster than Nakano on the ZX-RR. The only way to know is to try I think.
If nothing else though, as you say, the sponsorship dollars are a huge thing. $8 million extra cash available for developing the bike could give faster improvement, one certainly would think. And pace of improvement really has been the problem, one could say. The 2005 ZX-RR would have beaten the 2004 field or at least been right up there with them, based on lap times seen: the only problem is, it had to face the 2005 field of course. If somehow Kawasaki can increase the rate of development by 50% or more, which more dollars potentially could do, that could make all the difference in matching the other machines.
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Shortcircuit
Expert Class
Posts: 114
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posted December 11, 2005 12:28 AM
Biaggi had some races this season where he qualified badly but still ended in a good position at the end through racing very hard. I wonder if his bad mouthing the team has given him a less than perfect set up for race day, where he has had to ride the wheels off the bike to get the results he did. Plus don't underestimate Shinya, he had 4 DNF's through no fault of his own (3 breakdowns & 1 punt off), going by his performance he would have finished close to the Ducati's in the championship. I think he would have bettered OJ in China & may in all probability have been pushing Rossi even harder for the win there.
Despite the drawback with Max's attitude I am quietly hoping that there is a turnaround & Bridgestone pull their fingers out to accomodate him in the team. As Trenance says, it does suck that a tyre supplier can scupper a deal like this at the last minute.
A significant factor for me for 2006 is that Yamaha & Honda seem to be using evolutions of this years bike for next season (because of the 800cc rule change in '07) & Kawasaki appear to have an all new bike. I wonder if this will give them a significant edge for '06.
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Current '03 GPZ500S, '95 GPZ1100S
Previous: '84 Z1100R (Lime Green), '88 GPZ1000RX
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