TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted June 05, 2005 12:49 PM
Paper Filter?
I just went to clean the filter on the 10 and to my surprise I found a paper filter. Those things plug up in about 200 miles. I vacuumed the major bugs and crud and blew air from the inside out while the vacuum was still on. The bad part is the vacuum gripped onto the filter really hard which indicates not much airflow. I am going to get a K&N for it, I took another K&N and put the same vacuum to it and it gripped it about half as much. Paper is great if you replace it every 200 miles. And forget breathing if it gets even a small amount of moisture.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
  
|
magzx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 252
|
posted June 05, 2005 01:32 PM
Get the BMC Race Filter instead of the K&N.
____________
Mark
'03 ZX-12R
'12 1199S
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted June 05, 2005 01:46 PM
quote:
Get the BMC Race Filter instead of the K&N.
I hear they are great filters. I may just do that.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted June 05, 2005 03:08 PM
That's how stock filters are designed and manufactured. And for the most part, they work very well and last a decent amount of time for a ram-air type design. Just remember when you go to a BMC or K&N, they are very dependant on oiling the gauze material for proper filtration. The more flow, the more debris that is ingested. If you don't oil them, lots of particles get by them. And they actually work very well in torrential downpours. When we first rode the 10 (s) with KMC, we probably went 150 - 200 miles in monsoon conditions. The performance was unaffected by the massive amount of water coming in through the intakes
I went back to the stock filter after using the BMC (Race). I felt it's just too porous for a street bike ridden in diverse elements, coupled with such a massive amount of intake suction like the 10. If you buy one, get the BMC. The quality is much better than the K&N. Be sure to get the oiling/cleaning kit with it.
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted June 05, 2005 04:28 PM
k bryant, I just looked at the BMC filters and was going to ask you about the differences between race and street before I ordered. I am very familiar with oiling and filters Put myself through school working as a MC mechanic (started in 69) and raced flat track for many years. Quite successfully I might add. I have had tons of experience with K&Ns and found them to work well when oiled correctly.
Anyway I was thinking at this altitude I need all the air I can get. Did you try the standard BMC filters.Do you think that the BMCs flow better than the K&Ns? I wonder if they publish how many microns they filter down to? I am going on an Google search.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted June 05, 2005 05:51 PM
Overall construction of the BMC just seem superior. The molding process and sealing area around the edges are much nicer. Fit is simply perfect.
When they first came out for the 10, the "Race" style was all that was available. But it's definetly a very thin material/layer on the race version. On the track, I don't think it's nearly as big an issue, as on the street. I'm not sure about the street version, but I would think it simply has more pleats and/or more dense layers. If you get a chance to compare the two, you'll see the difference easily.
With the K&N's, they just seem to have way too many open holes (ie: poor quality). Basically, when you put them up to the light, you can see the inconsistency. So if they are not well oiled, lots of dust/sand, etc, will get through. The problem is that if they're oiled too much, you lose power with too wet of a filter. It's a little bit of a "catch 22". The BMC's just don't seem to have those irregularities. But I will say the Race style is just a little to thin for my tastes on a street bike. If the street version was available, I definetly would have tried it.
Good to hear you're a dirt track guy. Next to roadracing, it's my absolute favorite and I've been heavily involved since around 1980. Funny you mention about K&N and Dirt Track. It was a total blessing when those "filter skins" came out. We were ingesting way to much crap at some tracks and going through motors. Our team was running factory Honda NS750 and RS750's and parts weren't the easiest to come by (even though we were sponsered by American Honda). I was/am very heavily involved. During the 80's, I ran a team called "Freddie Spencer/SuperTrapp Racing". I sponsered Doug Chandler for 12 years and we had Randy Goss on the team for a bit as well. We sponsered the Factory H-D team at the same time with Scotty Parker, Springer, Chris Carr and Kevin Atherton. I had the honor of working with all the great tuners: Jerry Branch, Mert Lawwil, Bill Werner, Kenny Tolbert, Skip Eaken, Johnny Goad, and so many others. The exhaust systems we designed pretty much dominated Dirt Track from 1980 up through today. I probably worked with almost every Grand National Dirt Track guy in the 80's. I definetly miss going to all the Nationals. We also ran a Dirt Track school at Jerry Griffith's ranch. We had Ricky Graham, Freddie Spencer, Doug Chandler, Jimmy Filice and lot's of others there. We'd take care of HRC roadracers from Japan who'd come over and learn to ride Dirt Track. We trained on FTR250's (no front brake of course). For the last few years, I've narrowed the help down to my old buddy Babe DeMay with his riders Kevin Varnes (left for Suzuki) and for the last two seasons with J.R.S. I think we won 4 Nationals last year and one or two the year before. Actually I think he just won again at Springfield. Babe's a great guy and I will always support him.
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted June 05, 2005 06:47 PM
I go back a bit before you, early 70s for me, Used to race many of the same places where Roberts did, He was an expert and I was an junior at the time, when he was riding a DT1. Used to hang with Romero when I would go to Triumph school etc. Used to hang with Carl Cranke, his cousin Steve Pistone ( I think they took apart an engine and started a family) was my roomie when he moved to Reno, we worked at the same place. Our 40 incher was an XS1, light flywheels and all. I still have a F11m prototype motor in a a Cycle Factory frame.
I was a huge fan of Graham, Shobert. and the Honda boys( I had been out of it for years when they got big).
Needless to say that I wish flat tracking would have survived. I hate that it turned into a Harley fest. It would be fun to resurrect that Cycle Factory frame into a flat tracker and race old timers. I am thinking of making it a street bike. I tried to shoehorn a KLR650 motor into it but a 650 single is just too tall and I would have to really lower it too much. Maybe a 450 of some sort. Wouldn't a 400 twin two stroke be a hoot? I used to ride a 250 twin in the 360 class a few times, Tough in the corners but you could make up a lot in the straights. .
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
talldude
Parking Attendant
Posts: 17
|
posted June 07, 2005 02:04 PM
The BMC is a better filter (imo) had them in my 12.... My custom map was made with the stock filter in the 10 and I am goin stay with it. I take mine off every oil change (1000 miles)and use my leaf blower to clean it. I also do a reverse flush with the blower in each of the ram injection tubes. On each end of the stock filter there are soiled spots and when it gets too bad I'll buy a new one.
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted June 07, 2005 02:07 PM
This was a test I did in July of 2003 on my ZX12. As you see, the filter did indeed make more hp/tq.
I'm running a Dyno Shoot-out in Long Beach at the Queen Mary next month. When I prepare my own bike (10), I'll try and run some back to back to back tests to see whatz what.
quote:
Completed all testing. I re-ran all tests today. Man, I'm exhausted! It's hot and nasty in SoCal today. No bullshit, same day within 6 hours, it is what it is, and I'm really happy with all the results. For a "stocker", she's a runner!
As tested on '03 model, 5187 miles, broken in by the book. DJ150, SAE corrected, # 3 smoothing, EGA sniffer inserted. More comments below.
Box Stock - 159.4 hp, 91.1 tq
Muzzy/Jardine, PC3 disconnected, - 167.0 hp, 91.8 tq
Muz/Jar,PC3 connected, Muzzy map, - 167.9 hp, 94.3 tq
Muz/Jar,PC3/MuzMap, VP Ultimate4 fuel - 171.4 hp, 94.8 tq
Muz/Jar,PC3/MuzMap, VP MR9 fuel - 175.3 hp, 95.7 tq
All same plus BMC Race Filters - 176.4 hp, 97.7 tq
The fuel curves were all really close, varying in the 12.8 to 13.5 area. The last test with the BMC Race Filters proves they do indeed make power, but the torque is what surprised me more. But it's nowhere near the 3 - 5 hp that people claim. Unless perhaps it would be more effective when combined with internal mods. Maybe the fuel curve could be leaned out a little to add more power, but overall, it looked good.
For those questioning the purchase of a PC3. The test results above show minor improvement,more-so on the torque, but the fuel graph was superior. It is much more consistent and smooth with the PC3 & Muzzy Map. And of course you have the ability to modify/adjust it to your heart's content. Especially good (actually a must) when you start to do motor mods.
Bike runs great and I'm very satisfied with all the results. Hope this helps some of those who may be holding back on the mods. Big thanx to Doug Meyer for the tech assistance. The parts he supplied; exhaust, PC3, Map, Fans, Reed Block offs, and Steering Dampner kit, were awesome and I'm completely happy. Highly recommended! The only thing left that I'd like to do, is see what the numbers would be on a DJ250. Is there a standard correlation? It appears everyone is getting bigger numbers on a DJ250. Let the questions/comments begin! Better yet, screw anymore dyno testing. I'm going ridin!!!
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted June 07, 2005 02:52 PM
Thanks, Now I am wondering about the standard BMCs If they are equal in flow to the OEMs, the idea that they are serviceable is good. I am a bit worried that the "race" would not filter well enough on the street.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted June 07, 2005 04:02 PM
Honestly, the stock filter flows very well and they have improved a great deal over the last few years. I think the biggest benefit is the serviceability of the BMC/K&N as you point out. I'm sure it's possible to gain something, like on the 12. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
I really don't see anyway to get around the fact that if an aftermarket filter flows more, and dimensionally it's the same size as the stock filter, it's going to let more debris into the intake tract. And potentially alter the fuel curve. Better or worse, just depends on the application.
|
bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
|
posted June 07, 2005 10:35 PM
Get an oiled gauze filter, run it for a few months, then wipe your finger inside one of the velocity stacks. Be sure to have a stock filter on hand. You'll be wanting to put it back in.
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC