TedG
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posted June 01, 2005 12:59 PM
Let's talk exhaust
A little while back I posted about exhaust, and got a few replies back (imagine that if you will) and was told a full system was a waste and a slip on would give some gains. I was impressed with AreaPs noise level (even though I did not read the chart properly at first). Then I asked about the Cat. and was told it was a waste of time to cut it out because there were no gains to be had. OK, The other day I saw a that the Micron serpent showed some pretty impressive gains in the midrange. Which leads me to think that the the header system or the valve is plugging up the works. Granted I would never get a Micron system just because they are way too loud. But I am interested in what K briyant or Doug has to say as well as anyone else with experience..
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Ted
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k bryant
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posted June 01, 2005 05:25 PM
Definetly not true that a properly designed full system is a waste of money. Just depends on what it's worth to you.
On average, you'll gain 3 - 5 hp with a Slip-On and drop about 3 lbs. No mapping change required (PC3). Costs will range from $300 - $600.
Full systems can gain upwards of 10 or so hp, but do require mapping for full effectiveness. So you've got a wide spread of say $700 - $1500 for a system, and another $300 + for a PC3, then if you want a custom map, you could be in another $200 +. use the KMC/ECU, and you're up over $2k, but it's a pretty sweet piece.
So..... the question is it worth it to you to gain another 5+ hp for the extra cost(s) of a full system? The stock headpipe is very, very well designed, is lightweight and is titanium. The exhaust valve is not really affecting a stock engine. It does help slightly at low end-mid range with a little extra back pressure (stock engine), and of course it has benefits in attenuating sound below 5000 rpm or so. Once it's fully open, it really has minimal affect on flow for the stock engine. It's not a bad thing.
I've ridden both stock and full systems on the track (roadrace). It's difficult to appreciate a substantial difference. On the street, it's simply not noticeable.
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TedG
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posted June 01, 2005 06:48 PM
k bryant, thank you. I ride on the street although I have some awesome twisty roads at my disposal which allows me to crank it up. I go to the track very seldom. I would go more but there is always some tuna out there that has to show how fast he is and bails and takes someone out. Also time is a precious commodity. Also money is mostly not a big deal. I wouldn't' mind a beautiful slip on that was quiet. I am thinking the .45 head gasket would make up for some of my altitude loss better than anything.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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magzx12r
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posted June 03, 2005 07:11 AM
Get the full exhaust if you ever run your bike in the upper rpm range. That is where you will notice the gains.
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Mark
'03 ZX-12R
'12 1199S
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted June 06, 2005 06:16 AM
Will be ordering my Micron exhaust with serrpant header here in the next month. With it will go a set of BMC filters and a PC3. Will try to get it on the DYno before and after the mods. I am hoping to end up with +10 or more HP over stock. Later and Kawi ECU and custom map with some Bear Stacks, (if they are making them) and the thin headgasket. With the headgasket I may have roger degree the cams. Not sure on that yet. But myu over all goal for the bike is 175 HP at the rear tire.....that aught to make it a hoot to ride.
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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big daddy
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posted June 06, 2005 04:21 PM
Ted
I too debated this very thing but only for a short time as the 10 has plenty of giddy-up in stock form so a slip-on was the answer for me,hell i've got a PC3 sittin on the work bench that i'll install when i find a tuning center capable of doing a before and after A/F ratio and making a map.
BD
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TedG
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posted June 06, 2005 04:31 PM
quote:
Ted
I too debated this very thing but only for a short time as the 10 has plenty of giddy-up in stock form so a slip-on was the answer for me,hell i've got a PC3 sittin on the work bench that i'll install when i find a tuning center capable of doing a before and after A/F ratio and making a map.
BD
What is your impression of the slip on so far? AND what air filter are you using? Also the guys who own Freedom Cycle are friends of mine, they have a Dynojet and all the equipment for mapping. We may need to talk to them.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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big daddy
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posted June 06, 2005 04:49 PM
I like the Akra slip for its exhaust tone throughout the rev range and it shed 3lbs. I don't know if its gained anything performance wise or not. I stayed with the OEM filter simply because it works very well and as far as i've been able to assertain the biggest advantage of an aftermarket filter is being able to reuse it as opposed to replacing it.
BD
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted June 07, 2005 04:09 AM
an aftermarket airfilter is no only reuseable, but it tends to filter smaller particles as well than the stock filters. I run aftermarket filters for the quality of air going into my motor, not for the performance gains. Dirt will kill an engine, as we all know, I want to filter as much of it out as possible.....JMO
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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big daddy
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posted June 07, 2005 06:26 AM
Aftermarket filters flow more air (atleast thats the claim) hence they will allow not only more dirty air but perhaps larger particles than OEM.
BD
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TedG
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posted June 07, 2005 07:34 AM
Just because a filter flows more air does not mean it flows more dirt. There is much more to it. This is K&Ns explanation and it pretty much goes along with a lot of independent testing that has gone on for decades. http://www.knfilters.com/facts.htm What I am concerned with is the effect of more air on the 10. After reading some comments on dyno testing, some saw a drop in peak power. But was that a product of it being too lean? And more importantly what effect does a filter the flows better have at high altitude? Does the computer compensate using the MAP or the barometric pressure sensor? One would think that the MAP sensor would dominate. And the barometric pressure sensor would be more dominant when adjusting the timing.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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big daddy
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posted June 07, 2005 08:41 AM
OEM filters have come a long way fellas just as OEM exhausts, brakes, etc, etc and YES some K&N and BMC race or street air filters have shown under dyno testing conditions they are not as efficient as OEM ala 929rr, zx10r as 2 examples.
BD
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TedG
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posted June 07, 2005 09:10 AM
BD But is tt a lack of efficency OR a lean condition? It could be that the K&N or BMC are too efficent.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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big daddy
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posted June 07, 2005 09:18 AM
If memory serves me(and sometimes it fails me) the dyno testing i've referred to was a straight up swap filter-filter as well as a filter swap and PC map tuning. So a case by case scenerio certainly exist.
BD
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TedG
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posted June 07, 2005 09:30 AM
I would love to see 3 pulls. One with an OEM, one with a BMC (with about 200 hard miles on it to displace any excess oil), and one with no filter at all. Which would tell part of the story. It would be great if done at this altitude. But just as importantly it does not tell the effect Ram Air has on them. That can only come from an empirical side by side runs .
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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k bryant
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posted June 07, 2005 04:28 PM
BD - It's funny you mention the 929. I've did a lot of testing on the 900/929/954 with the K&N's. And I could never get them to run as well as with the stock filter. They always lost power. So far, it was the only model (Honda series) that I can say that about. Go figure....
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erich
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posted June 08, 2005 12:13 AM
 Edited By: erich on 8 Jun 2005 01:13
I dont know about the 929/954, but the factory pro airbox plus kit for the 900RR was 'the' setup. I always take Marc promotional skills with a grain of salt, but that kit was good for an honest 5 HP over the stock filter. Of course that was 10 years ago and maybe beyond the timeframe you're talking about.
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