FP 10R
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posted May 30, 2005 07:16 PM
Suitable Punishment?
Had ride day at the Island last Saturday very well 0rganised by Honda Riders Club weather was #$@% to say the least the wind being the worst problem so at the briefing the marshal outlines the rules for the day.
Rule 1. No passing on the two warm up laps.
Rule 2. No passing the lead rider on the two warm up laps.
Rule 3. No close passing due to varying skill levels and track conditions unless safe.
This is all good advice considering the conditions, in the first two sessions had a couple of moments just to start the heart all wind related no big deal. On the third session first lap at turn 11 still behind the Marshal ( refer rule 1) some nut bag passes me up the inside then drops his bike right in front of me! Tried my best to avoid him but his bike takes out both my wheels and sends me of the track skidding for about 40 meters.
End result Ambulance trip to hospital Broken Sholder and three ribs No ride for the rest of the day and my bike I would say about $5k of damage. My question is I have signed statements from the flag marshal and two other witnesses as to what happened and the sequence of events all stating this guy is totally at fault.
I am looking at an operation to have my sholder wired up and 6 weeks off work as well as the damage to my bike, do you think it unreasonable for me to expect this guy to foot the bill for the lot? As we all know you have no insurance on the track and if this had been a "Racing incident " I would have just worn it as part of the game.
Any suggestions on this one? Its lucky at the time my sholder was stuffed as my first reaction was to Punch His Lights Out! By the way my first ever off on the track in 35 years lucky huh.
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TedG
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posted May 30, 2005 07:42 PM
No matter what, you probably signed a waiver stating all accident and injury is your responsibility. IMHO you will be lucky to get an apology, much less any cash. Hopefully you have some insurance at work. Track days are just like racing. Even if someone breaks the rules they are not responsible for any other injury. If they were, could you imagine the lawsuits after each race? Sorry to hear about your crash.
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redelk
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posted May 31, 2005 06:05 AM
 Edited By: redelk on 31 May 2005 07:08
A lot depends on how the liability laws and the insurance companies there in the "Land Down Under" look at such things. In the U.S., any lawyer will tell you that the "protection" provided by signed waviers at the track isn't worth the paper it is written on.
I have run several AMA sanctioned off road enduros and am currently managing a CMRA race team. Like most events, one signs a waiver of liability when registering as well as one enters the track. Though it might discourage legal action against the club and sanctioning body, any good lawyer can get around them if they try hard enough. I can only assume that the same would apply to that "protection" of another rider and their "rule violating" actions.
If that avenue seems impossible to pursue, there is always the possibility of claiming the damages and injuries on your own insurance. The key is your were not at a "track day" or "racing". You were at a "rider traning" or "rider education" event. Insurance companies in the U.S. hate "racing" type events, but love "training" or "eduction" type events where one tries to inprove their riding skills. It is not like you are "lying", just looking at the event slightly different than what the average rider/racer would look at it. I know several folks that have successfully made such claims on both their health/medical insurance, as well as with their bike insurance.
If you do pull it off, I wouldn't try to do it more than once. Insurance companies, especially bike carriers, catch on to these types of claims real quick. Odds are, if this happened in the U.S., it will be very difficult to get any compensation from the other rider, the sanctioning body, the event host or the track facilities. You'd bsically be screwed. Sorry to hear about your crash.
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TedG
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posted May 31, 2005 07:14 AM
I like the "rider training" angle.
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Ted
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k bryant
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posted May 31, 2005 08:39 AM
That's kinda a tough one. You're on a race track and those are the chances you take. The only way to completely avoid situations like that are to not ride. I've had it happen to me, as well as I've crashed and taken out other riders in the carnege. It's a bad deal all around no matter how you look at it.
It's not unreasonable for you to think the way you are. I think that's natural. What would you honestly do if the shoe were on the other foot? What if your mistake took down multiple bikes with more serious injuries? I think when you put it on the racetrack, those are simply the risks. IMHO. Get well and get riding again.
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frEEk
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ummm... yeah
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posted May 31, 2005 09:42 AM
quote:
What would you honestly do if the shoe were on the other foot? What if your mistake took down multiple bikes with more serious injuries?
normally i'd agree that there is and should be no recourse to mistakes on teh track, but this wasn't just a mistake: this was a mistake made as part of a clear violation of the "laws" of the session. shouldnt there be consequences to breaking those rules? FP10R, have u looked into whether the organizing body alraedy has clearly defined responsibilities for this situation? it would seem to be a pretty huge lack of foresight and planning if not.
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k bryant
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posted May 31, 2005 11:35 AM
I agree. I just hesitate to put that in stone. Perhaps the organizing body can play some part in a mutual agreeable solution. I'm definetly curious as to what the outcome may be. I've never heard of any organization touching this kind of deal. Most of the time the parties involved in the "mistake" are mature enough to come to an agreement. I actually bought all new bodywork for one poor guy caught up in one of my "mistakes".... But that was the only time. Every other time (and there were many....), it's just the chances taken when on a racetrack.
But this is a good subject to opinionate about. These track days are obviously more popular than ever before in the history of our sport. So these kinds of "mistakes" are going to be more frequent. For the most part, these guys are street riders; not racers. A racer accepts and expects these things to happen. A street rider/track day rider probably doesn't. It would make for an interesting poll to find out other opinions.
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FP 10R
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posted May 31, 2005 03:50 PM
I hear all your advice and except it all "racing incidents are just that" when the field is not under the control of steward this would be fine. As FREEK says this incident was a clear case of totally ignoring the instructions issued during the rider briefing that apply to all participants on the day.
For the question of what would I do if the shoe was on the other foot, I would own upto my responsibilites and do whatever was required to rectify the situation "its called taking responsibility for your own actions" always have and always will.
Still waiting on all the details from the organizers to contact the guy and see what his reaction to the matter is, I will not know the outcome until I see the specialst today if I need an op or not on the sholder and the bill for the bike damage.
On the matter of trying to rig something insurance wise Not on! comes under the heading of Fraud not interested in the slightest its partly the reason we pay such high premiums now.
Best I can hope for is the guy excepts his mistake and the just settles the matter if not we go to court and let the judge decide it then becomes a civil matter.
Will keep you informed.
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avdigigeek
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posted May 31, 2005 07:05 PM
quote:
I would own up to my responsibilites and do whatever was required to rectify the situation "its called taking responsibility for your own actions" always have and always will.
FP 10r you wouldn't have to own up to anything cause it sounds like your not a dumb ass.
Good luck getting anything out of that kid. You were on a track though any thing goes.
I wouldn't expect anything from him.
Heal up, and good luck
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted May 31, 2005 08:17 PM
Tracks are dangerous playgrounds. If you think trackdays are bad, try clubracing. Then the ass-monkeys feel all enabled to take your shit out. I have done both and could not tell you which is worse when it comes to crazy fuckheads. It's still the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Personally, I can deal with the idiots. For the most part they have an aura of impending stupidity that foreshadows their screw-ups. I was sizing a guy up for a pass Sunday and the dipstick looked back at me. Believe me when I tell you I planned to give him a very wide margin. No need, he highsided in the next corner. The worst assholes are still the whiney, egotistical, crybaby pricks that come by your pit to piss and moan about scoring errors and other people's riding.
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FP 10R
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posted May 31, 2005 08:43 PM
Just got back from the surgeon go in Monday for a plate screws & a hook ? Stays in 6-12 months then comes out only way to guarantee as far as possible that no future problems happen with the sholder that could prevent me riding again.
Contacted the ride organizer for the other parties details and it has now gone legal at their end as to weather they can give me his detials under the privacy laws........strange setup.
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BFLY
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posted June 02, 2005 08:10 PM
All in all everyone that attends track days or club racing. Should read what they sign and understand what it is they agree to.
Let me put this another way I attended a track day and started in the beginners group. Now in the 2 round I had this CR telling me to follow his line. Every time I get to pace with him, he picked up the pace. He was very aggressive about this consitily tapping the back of his bike for me to follow closer. Even though I thought it was clear I was having a hard time keeping pace. While I did the best I could and not thinking twice about it Because he was a control rider CR. After lapping everyone I lost it in turn 12 lowsided the bike I did.
I was upset with what happened but bottom line is I made the choice to be on the track and accepted all the risk that came with it.
Now the question is was it myfault for trusting a CR and not backing off. Yes it was, but at the same point I did feel he had saw something in me I didn't.
My point we all know the risk involved and if I have to worry about being sued at the track. Where I have no insurance and could loose my house that my family lives in why go, when I could run on the street without recourse given I have coverage.
Don't take this wrong I do feel for you but remember were you where and there really are no rules out there. This is why the sport has survived so long all for one, none for all.
Good luck with your health and bike hopefully dude is a stand up guy and can afford to make right by you.
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FP 10R
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posted June 02, 2005 09:47 PM
Bo, BFLY, done many track days and racing in the past and as I said earlier incidents classed as racing incidents are just that and you except as I do that a race track is a potentially dangerous place. Having said that does this automatically mean that any caution or responsibility for your actions can be claimed under the above heading? I think not.
I am not out to crucify this guy or ruin his life financially but if a set of rules are laid down at the begining of the day and you choose to ignore them to the detriment of other track users I donnot believe it unreasonable to cop some sort of grief for your blatent stupidity.
This guy didn't just take himself out, I could have very easily made no attempt to avoid him and the possible injury he may have sustained that may very well have meant no injury to myself in the process.
I ask the question who, here would not make some attempt to rectify a situation caused only buy the stupidity of your own actions that caused injury to a fellow rider due to breaking an express rule for the days riding and conditions laid out in the pre ride briefing? Iknow I would! Or am I living in an alternate universe?
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fp 10r
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posted June 18, 2005 09:36 PM
Well it has now been 3 weeks since the spill as well as several phone calls to the ride day organizer still no reply from this prick! I have now lost my sense of humor and will inform them on Monday to forward all further correspondence to my Solicitor he had his chance.
Funny thing is because I am now going to leave it to the legal people to settle all my medical costs will now be part of the claim, I was originally going to be happy with just the out of pocket costs and my bike repairs. It appears that now my Medical insurance company will insist on full cost recovery and that is over $10k so far and their will be the removal cost of all the hardware in the next 12 months also on top.
Got the Ambulance bill last week $1800.00. christ knows what an Airlift would be worth! I can probably count on about $5k for the hardware removal and about $6k will see my bike fixed so its looking like a very costly mistake on his part for the day.
Now about $50k for a damages claim on top should make him situp and take notice, Doctor says it will take 12 months to get over this with the possibility of no feeling in the sholder area due to nerve damage that might come back over time.
I am so pissed over this I am thinking about selling my bikes? What's the use having them just sit their! #$%@ &*() ............ I am just so screwed can't do a F#$%ing thing for myself the guys a work have nick named me the One Armed Bandit.......HA HA.
Had my rant, feel a bit better.......watchout for dickheads they are everywhere.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted June 19, 2005 04:07 AM
Edited By: Hells Dark Lord on 19 Jun 2005 09:40
very bad ordeal FP, I wish you the best of luck on this situation. Was on the track yesterday all day with a buddy doing a trackday at Putnam Park. It was a great event and very well hosted. However I dont think there was much thought on what classes people put themselves in. We had guys in the intermediate class, that were running 1:21-1:25 and guys in the expert class running 1:17- 1:35. What is the sense in this. But they wouldnt let anyone change classes. Because of this my friend and another guy ran up on a guy on an SV650. My buddy rides a nice GSXR 1k, the following rider on another SV. The lead SV slowed way down for a corner and it caught my buddy and the folloing SV off gaurd. My buddy slowed down only to have the following SV try to get out from behind him and clip his front tire to my buddys back tire......down her went.
My buddy didnt go down, the following SV did a very good job of avoiding he and the lead SV. Point being is there shoulnt be that big of gap in the lap times of riders in a group, it causes many issues. And as these guys arent racers, not all of them know how to deal with this kind of speed difference, and it causes issues.
Then everytime someone crashed, they woudl redflag the track, we lost half of one session to one crash, and half of another session to another crash. flipping sucks.
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beansbaxter
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posted June 19, 2005 08:36 AM
one armed bandit!
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FP 10R
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posted June 19, 2005 02:26 PM
HDL, you have echoed my point exactly no grading on the day I was on either just three groups dividing the numbers!
Beans the reference is to the fact my left arm is in a sling. Funny Bastids just figuring which one to sack first!
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jonwright
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posted June 23, 2005 01:07 PM
Tough luck, but not sure you'll get much of anything from the 'at fault' rider.
I have the "I got taken out" T shirt as well. Not fun, but it's part of the risk.
Question there is what the race promoter will do. But if you can now sue over damages over something like this think of the legal precedent being set up. Only the lawyers would gain methinks.
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