phault
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted May 15, 2005 09:53 AM
trading my 12 for a 10 tommorrow i thimk?
hi im about 99% sure im trading my 2003 12 for the orange-red 10 at least i think its the color i have trouble with seeing some shades. my question is, is there anybody out there who as explored the full or almost full limitations of this bike,such as power wheelies,back tire braking loose,etc compared to my 12.On my 12 i went down 1 tooth on my front sprocket ,d&d slip on,i can whellie 2cond gear between 6&7000 rpms,my friend just bought 2005 cbr 1000 ,kinda dead untill about 7000 rpms but rips afterwards he can power wheelie 4th gear,will i see about the same performance with the 10.
|
fish_antlers

Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 15, 2005 10:02 AM
holy deja-vu batman!
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=19&TID=17402&set_time=
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 15, 2005 10:30 AM
As you see from fish's post I had exactly the same dilemma. As much as I loved my 12, I went out in the garage this morning and am contemplating selling the 12. I have only got 680 miles on the 10 and it is starting to come to life. I sat on both bikes this morning and the 12 seemed absolutely huge and (hate to say this) dated. See the other thread for details.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
phault
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted May 15, 2005 10:35 AM
yes i have been reading that since its begining but i havent read anything about a fully broken in bike and some one who actually rode it like they stole it.
|
fish_antlers

Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 15, 2005 10:57 AM
uh.. there are lots of members here, including myself, who have.... search the site... 100's of topics about your exact question.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 15, 2005 05:38 PM
Breaking in a bike like you stole it, isn't the smartest thing. What possible good would it do? Other than not allow the parts to bed in properly causing excess friction and loss of HP. Not to mention reduced fuel mileage, reduced compression, reduced reliability, accelerated oil consumption, etc. Some people just don't get it. Oh they think they do, but they are only fooling themselves. Most people don't understand what is really going on in a new tight motor. You can prematurely stretch the cam chain if you hammer a new bike, The cams are hard to turn when new and that will put excessive strain on the chain. Each and every single moving part will benefit from an easy break in. That oil film we depend on so much, is sliced through by the sharp machined surfaces until the part begin to bed into each other. You get the picture.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
fish_antlers

Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 15, 2005 06:53 PM
Ted.. I think (I think?) he is saying that he's never read of anyone riding a fully broken in 10R "like they stole it"...
Odd since there's hundreds of topics about that....
What about me? Am I chopped liver? I drive my 10R like I stole it, AND it's broken in...
Does that answer yer question ?
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 15, 2005 07:46 PM
It sounded like he is planning on getting a 10 and not breaking it in properly. I cannot help but speak my mind about how inane it is to flog a new bike, especially in the first 500 miles.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
phault
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted May 15, 2005 09:42 PM
no guys i fully believe in braking in a bike gently, that was not at all my intended question i will search the site more througly for my ansewer, because it seems you guys are a little frustrated with my question sounds like its been asked alot ..... sorry.
|
phault
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted May 15, 2005 09:51 PM
Edited By: phault on 15 May 2005 22:53
well i thought i previosly overlooked this forum but i guess i didnt on my screen zx10 zone only shows 4 pages with the earliest post being feb 15 with no posts really being talked about anyone riding a fully broken in 10 .
|
fish_antlers

Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 15, 2005 10:10 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 15 May 2005 23:16
? phault... I'm confused... first of all, no one is frustrated answering your questions, however this forum has been around well before the 10 even existed. We were the first to ride it even before it was available to the public. You yourself have been a member since 2003!
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
Hells Dark Lord

Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
|
posted May 16, 2005 01:28 AM
I had a 02 ZX12R and loved it, adn woudl still have it if I had not wrecked it. I bought the 04ZX10R as a replacement for my ZX12 and my 03 ZX6RR that I used for the track. I am totally happy with the 10 for doing ANYTHING except riding long distance on the highway.
I have done multiple trackdays on the 10 and I did one track day on the 12. There is no comparison there, the 10 is by far the better choice. My 10 is primarily a street bike, and here in KY we get some nice curvy roads. The 10 shines here. I have so far gotten less mileage out of my rear tires on the 10 than I did the 12. I dont know if its becasue its lighter or shorter or whatever, it eats tires. Maybe I have been hanging out with Ninjaman too much and am getting some of his hamfisted antics down, I dont know.
If I had to find fault with the 10 its in this, the stock brakes suck. My 12 had Goodridge steel braided brake lines and after market pads as did my 6RR. The 10 are still stock and they blow. The stock brakes on the 6RR were far better. And why doesnt this bike come with a steering damper???? If there is any one bike I have ridden or owned that needed one, its the 10 and it doesnt come with one. I transfered my Scotts over to the 10 and its perfect now as far as there being no headshake. Some aftermarket brake parts and she will be flawless.
If ya buy a 10, do yourself a favor and pick up some real tires and have the dealer put them on before she leaves the shop. The D218's OEM SUCK! ! ! ! ! I could spin them up at anytime, and mostly when I didnt want to. and I got shit mileage out of them. Took them off before they had 700 miles on them and put on a set of SC2's. I got almost the same mileage out of the SC2's as I did the Dunlop and got far better traction.
for general hoolaganism the 10 is a hoot....I am not a wheelie guy, but even I can ride them on this bike. I could ride them on the 12 as well, but it was far harder for me, and I couldnt ride them as far. One of the biggest differences I have noticed is that the 12 woudl seem to spin the tire alot, the 10 not so much, it will raise the front wheel instead, not a bad thing, just different.
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
|
phault
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted May 16, 2005 04:16 AM
thank you for your input .
|
fish_antlers

Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 16, 2005 07:09 AM
the question remains.. why dont you sift through the 50+ pages of content and read what people have written? Apart from a minor software upgrade that left only 4 pages of content viewbale for about 3 hours, since you've been surfing the site since 2003 you have had years to read up on the bike.
Anyways... the only frustration we have is people not taking advantage of the wealth of information contained within the site.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
fish_antlers

Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 16, 2005 07:37 AM
what about this topic?
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=19&TID=10641 .. .there's a link to it in the main forums index (most read topic ever, bottom left corner main forums index) ...
In that topic, dated feb. 23, 2004, you can read about us riding fully broken in ZX-10Rs "like we stole them", complete with photos...
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
phault
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted May 16, 2005 07:21 PM
well i traded my 12 today,pretty fair deal dealer gave me 6100 for trade in for my pretty much stock 12 ,and 10,500 for the 10. color is magma red but looks more orange to me,but i wont have the bike for 3 or 4 days, the one on the floor came equipped with lojack for an extra 800 bucks, not intrested in lojack if the bike gets stolen i dont want it back. so i will let you guys know how i like it as i ride it .
|
fish_antlers

Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
|
posted May 17, 2005 09:22 AM
sounds cool! enjoy it!
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
|
madav8tr
Novice Class
Posts: 53
|
posted May 17, 2005 10:52 AM
Congratulations man. I am sure you will love the 10R. I hate dealers though. 6100 trade for your 12?!! I understand that dealers need to buy trades cheap so they can make a profit but 6100 is crazy cheap. Here, used 2003 12's sell all day for 9G at dealerships. Combine a 3 thousand dollar profit off of the sale of the 12 later with the grand profit being made on the 10 and that dealer will pocket around 4 grand from one deal. Some dealers can do it I suppoze.
|
phault
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted May 18, 2005 07:15 PM
im from ri i paid 9 grand for the bike 2 years ago used bike around here dont go for that much i went to pick up my 10 today and my 12 was on the floor for 7295 but hey what am i to do i tried 4 different dealers and where i bought it was the best deal,2 of the dealers werent even intrested in the trade 12's arent that poular around here there a tough sell,1 dealer still has 00and 01 leftoversfor sale for 8000 grand.
|
canadamaxxer

Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 22, 2005 09:39 AM
Edited By: canadamaxxer on 22 May 2005 10:45
quote: Breaking in a bike like you stole it, isn't the smartest thing. What possible good would it do? Other than not allow the parts to bed in properly causing excess friction and loss of HP. Not to mention reduced fuel mileage, reduced compression, reduced reliability, accelerated oil consumption, etc. Some people just don't get it. Oh they think they do, but they are only fooling themselves. Most people don't understand what is really going on in a new tight motor. You can prematurely stretch the cam chain if you hammer a new bike, The cams are hard to turn when new and that will put excessive strain on the chain. Each and every single moving part will benefit from an easy break in. That oil film we depend on so much, is sliced through by the sharp machined surfaces until the part begin to bed into each other. You get the picture.
I have to put my 2 cents in on this comment. The information you are giving is not accurate regarding break in procedures. The only components that benefit from break in are the piston rings, and an easy break in is about the worst thing for them (you only have about 200km's to accomplish this goal...which is not consistant with your comments about oil consumption, lack of compression,etc). The other components you've listed have wear issues that are not related to the twist of the wrist in any way, shape or form. The only thing that NEEDS to be done as the initial phase of break in is a proper warm up to operating temperature. To say that the cam chain is effected by the user is preposterous. Are you suggesting that the rapid acceleration of the crankshaft due to a quick twist of the wrist is going to stretch the chain UNLESS this is done slowly and controlled.... over a period of time? That would imply that the chain is made of something about as strong as toffee and then over time it work hardens and becomes the unit we are familiar with.....doesn't that sound kinda fishy??? In addition....which is more of a factor of the resistance of the cams to rotation......the slight drag of the cam against the cam journal, or the valve springs pushing back on the cams while trying to keep the valves closed??? I would suggest that the valve springs are far more of a cause of "friction" than the cam-to- journal clearance AND that valve spring tension is hopefully a constant throughout the life of the engine.....so the resistance from the valve train is virtually constant throughout the life of the engine.
There is one essential element you are ignoring: any kind of metal-to-metal contact at any other time than startup is death for the engine (and even contact during startup will be the eventual demise of the engine)....either fast or slow, but death. Oil pressure holds the rotating components in suspension due to hydrodynamic lubrication..there is no metal-to-metal contact for any of these components unless something is drastically wrong. Engines are not built with sharp edges that need to wear. You have to understand the definition of a bushing-type bearing.....two differing metals (one hard and one soft)......if the hard metal (the cam, crank, etc) has a sharp edge, it will machine a groove in the softer material. If the softer material has a high spot, it will either wear away, or get hot and smear, and/or ruin the hydrodynamic effect. In any of these cases, it is an engine build failure.....poor quality control, or manufacturing processes. There is nothing that the user can do to effect this (other than making things worse by running the bike without adequate warm up).
Bearings don't break in, gears don't break in, the cases don't heat cycle, the rings don't heat cycle. All of that stuff is urban legend. The science involved with engine and related components has fine tuned the manufactured parts to the point whereby the user is almost completely removed from the break in process.
Before you start in on me about how I don't know what I'm talking about, let me explain my background......I am a licensed automotive technician with 15 years of experience. I have built literally hundreds of heavy duty, automotive, motorcycle, and snowmobile engines. I certainly don't know everything, but have enough theory and practical experience to know what is true and what is not. I have researched this subject for years, and am convinced the only components that the user can effect during break in are the piston rings. in my experience and opinion, once the engine is warmed to operating temperature, the sooner and harder the rings are seated, the better the engine will run and for a longer period of time. I am also convinced that that gentle break in procedures are to accomplish 2 things: 1) to ensure that engines that have questionable engineering last longer before failure (and hopefully off the warranty period before failure), 2) to stop the new rider from killing his/herself while first adjusting to the new bike. Both of those reasons are provided by the lawyers, not the engineers....
The biggest single important part or aspect to the break in process is the oil change IMMEDIATELY after the break in road test is done, and then shorten the oil change interval to about 500km's per service for the first 1500-2000 km's
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted May 23, 2005 06:23 PM
quote:
quote: Breaking in a bike like you stole it, isn't the smartest thing. What possible good would it do? Other than not allow the parts to bed in properly causing excess friction and loss of HP. Not to mention reduced fuel mileage, reduced compression, reduced reliability, accelerated oil consumption, etc. Some people just don't get it. Oh they think they do, but they are only fooling themselves. Most people don't understand what is really going on in a new tight motor. You can prematurely stretch the cam chain if you hammer a new bike, The cams are hard to turn when new and that will put excessive strain on the chain. Each and every single moving part will benefit from an easy break in. That oil film we depend on so much, is sliced through by the sharp machined surfaces until the part begin to bed into each other. You get the picture.
I have to put my 2 cents in on this comment. The information you are giving is not accurate regarding break in procedures. The only components that benefit from break in are the piston rings, and an easy break in is about the worst thing for them (you only have about 200km's to accomplish this goal...which is not consistant with your comments about oil consumption, lack of compression,etc). The other components you've listed have wear issues that are not related to the twist of the wrist in any way, shape or form. The only thing that NEEDS to be done as the initial phase of break in is a proper warm up to operating temperature. To say that the cam chain is effected by the user is preposterous. Are you suggesting that the rapid acceleration of the crankshaft due to a quick twist of the wrist is going to stretch the chain UNLESS this is done slowly and controlled.... over a period of time? That would imply that the chain is made of something about as strong as toffee and then over time it work hardens and becomes the unit we are familiar with.....doesn't that sound kinda fishy??? In addition....which is more of a factor of the resistance of the cams to rotation......the slight drag of the cam against the cam journal, or the valve springs pushing back on the cams while trying to keep the valves closed??? I would suggest that the valve springs are far more of a cause of "friction" than the cam-to- journal clearance AND that valve spring tension is hopefully a constant throughout the life of the engine.....so the resistance from the valve train is virtually constant throughout the life of the engine.
There is one essential element you are ignoring: any kind of metal-to-metal contact at any other time than startup is death for the engine (and even contact during startup will be the eventual demise of the engine)....either fast or slow, but death. Oil pressure holds the rotating components in suspension due to hydrodynamic lubrication..there is no metal-to-metal contact for any of these components unless something is drastically wrong. Engines are not built with sharp edges that need to wear. You have to understand the definition of a bushing-type bearing.....two differing metals (one hard and one soft)......if the hard metal (the cam, crank, etc) has a sharp edge, it will machine a groove in the softer material. If the softer material has a high spot, it will either wear away, or get hot and smear, and/or ruin the hydrodynamic effect. In any of these cases, it is an engine build failure.....poor quality control, or manufacturing processes. There is nothing that the user can do to effect this (other than making things worse by running the bike without adequate warm up).
Bearings don't break in, gears don't break in, the cases don't heat cycle, the rings don't heat cycle. All of that stuff is urban legend. The science involved with engine and related components has fine tuned the manufactured parts to the point whereby the user is almost completely removed from the break in process.
Before you start in on me about how I don't know what I'm talking about, let me explain my background......I am a licensed automotive technician with 15 years of experience. I have built literally hundreds of heavy duty, automotive, motorcycle, and snowmobile engines. I certainly don't know everything, but have enough theory and practical experience to know what is true and what is not. I have researched this subject for years, and am convinced the only components that the user can effect during break in are the piston rings. in my experience and opinion, once the engine is warmed to operating temperature, the sooner and harder the rings are seated, the better the engine will run and for a longer period of time. I am also convinced that that gentle break in procedures are to accomplish 2 things: 1) to ensure that engines that have questionable engineering last longer before failure (and hopefully off the warranty period before failure), 2) to stop the new rider from killing his/herself while first adjusting to the new bike. Both of those reasons are provided by the lawyers, not the engineers....
nd
The biggest single important part or aspect to the break in process is the oil change IMMEDIATELY after the break in road test is done, and then shorten the oil change interval to about 500km's per service for the first 1500-2000 km's
My background is 12 years as a motorcycle mechanic, Factory trained (not the short 3 day schools) Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki, Triumph, BSA, KTM/Penton, just to name a few. There were very few days of my life that I didn't rebuild/repair multiple engines both 2 and 4 stroke. Also I am currently an Electrical, Mechanical, and Software engineer V at an ISO 2000 company.
I have seen literally hundreds of poorly broken in engines with spun bearings, galled cams, seized pistons etc. We could go on and on, throw flames back and forth so we should agree to disagree. But there are a couple of things we can agree on, First it can't hurt to break in an engine tamely. Especially the first 100 miles of on/off, on/off.
Second the engineers and designers must have some reason to recommend the long break in period. And I will bet it isn't to annoy us.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
|
|
|
|