extremelean
Pro
Posts: 1651
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posted April 27, 2005 06:47 PM
Kbryant..whats your take on this....
Remember when we talked about this last year.... "Traction Control"----->>> http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2005/Apr/050427e.htm
Feel free to chime in everybody....make sure you read the article first.
  
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted April 27, 2005 07:43 PM
What seems to me is another form of traction control is a boost controler for the Turbo 12s and Busas!!!...How else can you ride a 350-400 HP 60" turbo in the 1/4 mile going 7.90s @ 185???
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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kz2zx
Pro
Nobody in Particular
Posts: 1166
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posted April 27, 2005 09:25 PM
How come the Red team didn't find a subtle interplay of engine control dynamics that happened to increase hookup first?
That said, what engine tuner wouldn't tune the bike to hook up? My take reading the article is that it's a natural evolution. Hard evidence of intent such as a wheel-slip feedback mechanism would be one thing.
In fact, if I were the rules committee, I'd make the rule say that any closed-feedback system is verboten, but whatever you can do open-loop is just fine. And, I'd make every single team show me their closed-loop algorithms, and each factory team that had a custom (non-stock) algorithm prove it by providing source code to an independent analyst (and paying for it...). One good clue that the algorithms used was non-stock would be any aftermarket electronics box not mass-produced (sold less than 2500 units) on the bike.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 28, 2005 12:32 AM
first of all, would any team be stupid enough to do something that is clearly against the rules (even if u can get a lawyer to argue thru some loophole that u are not breaking them)? and if so, do they not have any honour either? i would think everyone involved would be ashamed of themselves if they won a championship or even a race knowing they cheated. or is that concept completely dead these days?
i definitely agree with kz2zx in that anything open-loop can't be considered traction control imho. like the example of ignition retard in lower gears... since that's no different form teh rider just not going beyond 3/4 throttle in lower gears, how is that any kinda of traction control? that's like calling a standard 400cc bike a marvel of modern traction control systems. unless the system detects and reacts to loss of traction, it isnt traction control imho.
as to the idea of traction control on bikes itself.. i think it's a great idea, but i suspect it wouldnt be as all-encompasing as some people may expect. there are simply several limitations on what such a system could do, at least without getting seriously complex and expensive. i see a couple major situations that would be hard, or impossible, to overcome
1. wheelies: any wheel slippage system based on comparing front to rear wheel speed is gonna trigger every time to lift the front, which we know happens all the time in racing. for the street this wouldnt be much of an issue, since we shouldnt really be running that hard on the street anyway. stunters would be kinda screwed tho. this could likely be overcome by sensors that detect when the front wheel leaves the ground and turns off or otherwise modifies the behaviour of the system. hardly an ideal solution. i suppose (for racing at least) idea would not be lifting the front at all, so this (arguable) side-effect of traction control could actually be a good thing, not a problem.
2. lowsides: i believe you could detect a lowside by combination of wheelspin sensors and lean angle sensors and accelerometers, but what could the system possibly do to react and save the bike? i'm pretty sure nothing.
traction control would cover a great many common underdrawer-stain-inducing situations tho, which makes me quite like the idea. i'd bet it would have a significant impact on bike accidents.
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zxhoya
Zone Head
Posts: 631
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posted April 28, 2005 05:14 AM
You guys are obviously waaaay smarter than me, so help me understand.
How is it possible to have an ecu controlled traction control without some sort of sensor (ie: lean angle). Wouldn't it be counter productive for situations on the race track that dont require corner exits? What happens at race starts when you have to accelerate from a standing start?
Also, does the AMA have an inspection like, (forgive me) NASCAR, where they go over every inch of the bike?
Is the latest generation GSXR that much better than the field, or is it just Mladin.
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''The angle of my dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of my meat'' Will Ferrell
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted April 28, 2005 06:09 AM
Reconfiguring the ECU/making up a new wire harness to add complete Controlability to the ignition system is legal cheating for now!!!... Everyone is starting to do it because we all like being able to tune the ignition to our likeing!!!
Nothing is illegal until other racers protest and have Tech inspect a said bike looking for whatever it maybe that is illegal in the rules!!!...In order for the reconfigured ECUs and wire harnesses to be illegal, all the racers have to get together and say OEM ecu/wire harness only!!!
The Technology and the Riders are that much better!!!
A friend of mine just did a 200mile RoadRace by himself !!!!!!!!!!!...That race is usually done with 3 racers using 1 bike, he finished 12th just 3 laps down!!!...It's guys like that, that become the Matt Mladins of the sport!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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SP8
Novice Class
Posts: 72
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posted April 28, 2005 06:13 AM
quote:
You guys are obviously waaaay smarter than me, so help me understand.
How is it possible to have an ecu controlled traction control without some sort of sensor (ie: lean angle). Wouldn't it be counter productive for situations on the race track that dont require corner exits? What happens at race starts when you have to accelerate from a standing start?
Also, does the AMA have an inspection like, (forgive me) NASCAR, where they go over every inch of the bike?
Is the latest generation GSXR that much better than the field, or is it just Mladin.
You don't need speed sensors. You can have programable timing retard working off the gears.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted April 28, 2005 06:46 AM
You want a free traction control device to prevent accidents? Take the rear brake off any sportbike sold to a rookie. That would prevent about half of them.
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted April 28, 2005 08:37 AM
Man, is nothing sacred anymore XL? You can't ask me that question...... 
Essentially, the way the rule is written, you can have it. Anyone can have a form of traction control (whatever their particular budget permits). I would imagine if anyone was using it (though I'm not saying anyone is...), it would obviously be controled by gear selection (as SP8 points out). You'd also be able to disable on demand based on conditions (rider, bike, tire, suspension, early in race, late in race, etc.).
With the dynamics of only two wheels, lean angles, small contact patch, sliding to back-in, back-out, change direction, etc., the overall benefits on a motorcycle (verses an F1 car) are much smaller.
Bottom line is - Mat is a superior rider and way above everyone else at the moment. His winning formula is with him, Suzuki, and Yoshimura having the whole package dialed: mind, body, bike.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 28, 2005 10:27 AM
how come i never heard such accusations regarding Rossi, when he dominates even when riding a clearly inferior bike? smacks of our north american obsession with blaming the other guy instead of trying harder ourselves. of course, some people may actually _know_ they're using some traction control, in which case the complaitns are valid.
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extremelean
Pro
Posts: 1651
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posted April 28, 2005 11:59 AM
Kerry....... Dont get me wrong....I am not complaining or anything like that, I just think that its funny that more people in the right places are starting to stand up and take notice....like HONDA ( as written in the article). I ran it by a couple of the race guys last year, about the same time that I spoke with you about it and It was pretty much dismissed without any thought....But now it seems to be coming to light.
SEE IM NOT crazy afterall!!
seriously thought...no matter what team is using it, Do you think that this kind of engine management/traction control should be used in AMA racing??
Feel free to chime in on this question everyone.
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted April 28, 2005 01:33 PM
Good question. My personal opinion is that they not allow it. But Superbike is/was supposed to be our premire class that showcases "works" type machines and technology. Since it's dominated by factory riders and bucks up manufactures, then maybe the argument of "why not" should be applied equally. But if you knew how much it's actually being used in action you'd laugh. It always seems to come up when someone starts dominating (like Mat) or someone in the paddock detects a different exhaust note when exiting lower gear corners.....
The Superbike class should be gone. The main class should be Superstock. Look at the lap times; they are so close and those bikes cost a sliver of what a Superbike does. Having both classes is ridiculas. And we'd probably have more factory involvement at the Superstock level as well as more support for the privateers. I honestly think Mat would probably still be winning at most tracks in the Superbike class on a dialed-in Superstock; no doubt.
Oh, and Freek - well said.
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Dino
Pro
Posts: 1422
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posted April 28, 2005 04:24 PM
All my bikes are set up with traction control. It's a thingy that slides over the bar on the right side. Some call this a throttle.
I must be hopeless old school.....I want as much (good) power as you can give me in a light, well handling package. The wrist can take it from there.
I hope to fuck they don't start making bikes like some cars. With all the techno crap built in,...talent/skill is no longer going to be required.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted April 28, 2005 08:53 PM
I watched the Hondas Passing Rossi last year on the straight at Valencia. He looked over and (out of frustration?) must have opened up the throttle because his front wheel came up about a foot. Keep in mind this was near the end of the straight, and they were doing close to 200. It isn't about power anymore. It's about useable power.
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