blazin
Novice Class
Posts: 70
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posted October 18, 2004 04:34 PM
no power commander needed...
OK my buddy had an r6(04). He was able to find and article about how you can manually set his mixtures and such. ALl he had to do was cut one wire and ground it. He can now access the ecu via his instrument cluster. You guys heard anything like that for the 10?
  
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10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted October 18, 2004 05:40 PM
The 10R and GSXR1000 ECUs are very similar (they practically look the same), and they are able to change parameters with a teka tool. Hearing about your buddy changing params on the R6 really isn't a surprise. What color, and where is the wire going to? I don't know much about the R6 - does it have similar sensors like air pressures, water temp, speed, and gear position, secondary throttle system and exhaust valve?
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morrisjl2
Novice Class
Posts: 50
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posted October 18, 2004 06:54 PM
Moter, as you are most likely aware of Kaw and Suk are now made by the same foks.
Also what is a teka tool?
Are you saying we do not need a PC when we add a pipe, etc?
Thanks
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted October 18, 2004 08:27 PM
At least it isn't a Triumph. Those lucky souls get their ECUs reprogrammed for free. At the dealer. In fruitless search for power and driveability.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted October 18, 2004 09:45 PM
PLEASE dont start cutting wires to or from you ECU.
Thanks.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted October 18, 2004 10:50 PM
Morris
Yes I know kawi and suzuki are owned by the same company. The 1000 and 10R ECUs are very similar. I can't remember the company, but its something like Bazaa performance, that makes programmable ECUs for the 1000. They say that the ecus are almost pin for pin compatible. Note that I said almost. A teka tool plugs into the GSXR wiring harness and allows fuel trim, idle RPM, and other adjustments to be made to the ECU, so I suspect that the 10R ECU is also adjustable. My motor builder/advisor says the PC is pretty much junk, and uses the teka with much better results.
With the motor in a car we have hacked on the wiring harness pretty extensively. Not that I think this should be done on a bike, but we don't care about side stands and having the clutch in when starting. I'll let you all know what we remove and how it performs.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted October 19, 2004 08:55 AM
10R... the PC isn't "pretty much junk".. .it's a very slick unit and is quite refined in it's 3rd incarnation now.... The ECU's for the 10R and the gixxer are quite different. You'd better get your facts stragith before you coax a bunch of people into chopping up their wiring harnesses. There are a lot of builders, tuners, OEMs, AND reps from Dynojet who are members here... I'd caution people to wait for some advice from some industry professionals to weigh in on this.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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a
Novice Class
Posts: 74
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posted October 19, 2004 08:55 AM
quote:
Morris
Yes I know kawi and suzuki are owned by the same company.
Hm they are not owned by same company. They just cut costs on some models. Kawi is much much bigger company than suzuki
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rubber pants
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted October 19, 2004 11:00 AM
Kawi is much much bigger company than suzuki
Don't think so Tim! 
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"Ya Gotta Have Big Ones!"
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blazin
Novice Class
Posts: 70
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posted October 19, 2004 03:41 PM
I think when he said 10r ecu's are junk I think he ment in performance aspects or settings...not junk to be thrown away. 
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10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted October 19, 2004 05:10 PM
I don't know why you think I'm advocating hacking the wire harness - "Not that I think this should be done on a bike, ...". I stated what my application was (a car), and why I was making the mods. I'm doing things like totally removing the exhaust valve actuator, secondary throttle actuator and throttle plates, air valve, etc. I'll be doing some dyno testing as well and would like to be able to report what I find.
Secondly, I stated my motor builder/advisor says the PC (not the 10R ECU) is junk. Thats because when he has removed it from bikes (and cars) Hp has gone back up. They die more than just randomly - look at other similar posts on the subject. Yes, some have good results with the PC, and thats fine, no arguments here. It is a good product, but it doesn't work that well in my application. If someone took offense to my comments, I apologize. When I saw the possibility of programming the 10R ECU I inquired further.
Does it matter whether kawi is bigger or smaller than suzuki? No. Lets concentrate on the 10R, and making it even better than it already is.
So Blazin, can we get back to the original topic of where the wires in the R6 were going to/from?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted October 20, 2004 12:38 AM
What's your application that the PC "doesnt work well" in?
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted October 20, 2004 04:17 AM
Kawasaki and Suzuki are the same company??????????????? what did I miss?
I know they combined for some R&D on their motocross lines, but that was as far as I have ever heard of it going.....
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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superchuck12
Novice Class
Posts: 40
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posted October 20, 2004 01:59 PM
Kaw and suzuki 'merged' was what the press release stated.Chuck
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drowland
Zone Head
Posts: 733
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posted October 20, 2004 02:18 PM
Yes this is true they did emerge in some aspects.
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big daddy
Zone Head
Posts: 616
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posted October 20, 2004 02:23 PM
emerge or submerge that is the Q
BD
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rubber pants
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted October 20, 2004 02:35 PM
Here again is the truth about the Kawasaki / Suzuki "Alliance":
Suzuki Press Release Explains Suzuki/Kawasaki Alliance
MD received the following press release from American Suzuki Motor Corporation today. It provides some interesting information regarding the Suzuki/Kawasaki alliance, future, co-development of new models, and current product sharing by the two companies.
BREA, Calif. (May 24, 2002) - Suzuki's alliance with Kawasaki will directly benefit the Suzuki brand, growth rate, dealer network and expanding customer base.
That's the theme of remarks by American Suzuki Motor Corporation (ASMC) Vice President of Motorcycle/ATV Division Mel Harris, delivered recently to replace erroneous and unconfirmed rumors with the reasons, benefits and forecasts behind the unprecedented alliance.
Suzuki Motor Corp. (SMC) of Hamamatsu, Japan announced plans in August 2001 to form an alliance with Kawasaki Heavy Industry Ltd., also based in Japan.
According to Harris, the alliance will bolster current ASMC growth and competitiveness.
"ASMC provides products of superior value and considers its dealers vital partners in the company's current growth trend. Although Suzuki has had a reputation for being a conservative company, we are becoming considerably more aggressive."
Harris said ASMC's retail sales have doubled in the last four years, during which time Suzuki has produced many - if not the most - new and desired high-volume models in the industry. The company has renewed its commitment to the all-terrain vehicle (ATV) market with a completely new lineup of QuadRunners and QuadSports. ASMC has also stepped-up its commitment to racing by fielding more teams and winning more championships to elevate Suzuki brand awareness both globally and in the customer's mind.
"We will remain an aggressive, independent marketer in the future as we continue to make the Suzuki brand a very valued product," emphasized Harris.
Other details of the alliance released by Harris to Suzuki's dealer network include:
1. Suzuki and Kawasaki will share certain production platforms (or OEM- produced product). As an example, the DR-Z125 will be a KLX125 and a KX65 will be an RM65.
2. Suzuki and Kawasaki will share parts sourcing, which will help both independent companies remain competitive in the global marketplace.
3. Suzuki and Kawasaki will co-develop future industry-leading motorcycle and ATV models that will fill in product line gaps and create new sales opportunities.
Expanded 2003 Product Line
In product news, ASMC announced its 2003 off-road, competition, Dual SportT and QuadRunner (QuadSport) lineup, which has been expanded thanks to the addition of OEM models from Kawasaki. According to Harris, Suzuki dealers can now complement their current lineup of RM85, RM85L, RM125 and RM250 competition models with the RM60, RM65 and RM100.
On the off-road side, the addition of the DR-Z110 to Suzuki's JR50, JR80, (DR-Z110), DR-Z125/DR-Z125L, DR-Z250 and DR-Z400/DR-Z400E models means that Suzuki can provide a vehicle to match any rider or riding ability.
Suzuki also offers its most comprehensive ATV lineup ever. In 2001, the company introduced the new LT-A50; the new Eiger series LT-F400, LT-F400F, LT-A400 and LT-A400F; the award-winning Vinson LT-A500F; the award-winning LT-F250 Ozark; and the chart-topping LT-Z400 QuadSport Z400. These new units, coupled with the popular LT80, LT-F300F and LTF500F, give the company a vastly improved breadth of QuadRunners for retail growth.
For 2003, Suzuki announces the new LT160 and Vinson LT-F500F. "Because Suzuki has enjoyed success in its 'flagship' lines GSX-R, Hayabusa, Katana, Bandit, Intruder and Marauder, the resources have been available for investment in quads and new motorcycles," explained Harris.
Unparalleled Competitiveness
Under the alliance, Suzuki will sell OEM product to Kawasaki, which will market that product as Kawasaki models through the Kawasaki dealer network - much the same as certain Kawasaki OEM models will be sold by Suzuki dealers under the Suzuki brand. The result for Suzuki, according to Harris, will be one of - if not the - most competitive vehicle lineups in the industry.
"Suzuki will have more models for all types and skill levels of customers -- making the Suzuki dealership a true "one-stop shopping center."
Harris reiterated that remaining competitive is a primary objective of any business and Suzuki is no exception. "Part sourcing will allow us to update models with enhanced features and quality like never before."
"In addition, an increase in buying power should help with production components and replacement parts, as well as help us counter the volatility of currency with competitive pricing amid dollar/yen turmoil. Suzuki has always had economies-of-scale opportunities for parts with autos, marine outboards and motorcycles/ATVs," explained Harris. "Now, with the addition of the Kawasaki alliance, our buying power has been magnified to enable us to secure the highest-quality parts at the most competitive prices. For the Suzuki dealer, the result is more product updates and features than ever before."
Harris explained that one of the most important benefits of the alliance is the long-term co-development of new models. "More production and more parts sourcing will lead to more new motorcycles and quads in the coming years."
The new joint effort between manufacturers, designers and engineers will translate into more new products and major model updates realized in a shorter time frame. Models involved in co-development include large cruisers, motocrossers, off-road and larger-displacement scooters. In addition, the alliance will enable Suzuki to realize the competitive advantages of adding select models not currently available in its lineup - a benefit that will be especially relevant in the 2004 product line and beyond.
One area of dealer concern has been the future of Suzuki's flagship sportbike, the GSX-R. Harris assured dealers that they - and only they - will sell Suzuki's increasingly popular signature series.
"No OEM collaboration on these sport models is part of the alliance. The GSX-R series represents our best-selling, most prolific vehicles, and will always be a key area of company excellence and dealer performance. Likewise, many standard and on-road Suzuki models will remain 100 percent Suzuki - forever maintaining Suzuki dealers' status as the strongest retailers in the industry."
Harris is quick to point out that Suzuki and Kawasaki will remain competitors by maintaining separate dealer networks and by marketing the brands separately. As an example, SuzukiFest and QuadFair will remain Suzuki marketing tools, as will Suzuki Direct Finance.
Replacement parts for the new OEM models for retail will come from Suzuki, says Harris. Dealers will order OEM parts as part of their regular Suzuki parts order. All OEM parts will be eligible to be used with all parts allowance or return programs provided by Suzuki.
Warranty on OEM units will be handled the same as Suzuki-produced units. All normal warranty periods for units will be the same as comparable Suzuki model current programs. Suzuki's Flat Rate Manual will cover all models since the 2003 book is produced and supplied for the upcoming season.
FAQs
Q: Will a subsidiary company be established in the future?
A: Plans are to use the alliance for increased retail sales volume of each model. There are no current plans for a spin-off subsidiary company or combined brand.
Q: Are there plans for unifying companies in the future?
A: There are no plans for unifying the two companies. The alliance has been established to provide a competitive product lineup to make dealers competitive.
Q: Will the OEM product exchange cause a negative effect on the motorcycle business, as customers have a strong personal preference?
A: With 30 to 40 percent of Suzuki volume being sportbikes, which aren't part of the alliance, OEM product with the Suzuki identity will remain strong, as these are the "flagship" models. With more models, creating more sales opportunities to keep customers on Suzuki products forever, there will be a Suzuki for all riders and all skill levels.
Q: Will racing activities be combined?
A: Suzuki will continue to race separately, as racing helps create a strong brand image. Racing also helps develop new technologies that can be used in future models.
Q: With Motocross models being part of the co-development, will Suzuki remain competitive against all other brands?
A: Motocross racing combines many factors besides the motorcycle itself. Rider techniques, tuning of bikes and management of teams all contribute to team success. Suzuki will remain competitive as racing is used to improve brand image.
Q: Will the companies advertise and promote together?
A: Both Suzuki and Kawasaki will have separate dealer networks as well as separate marketing programs. Separate branding will remain a commitment of each manufacturer.
Q: Will the co-developed (or shared OEM) product offer only "color" (for example, yellow or green for motocross) as the main differentiating factor?
A: Each company will offer specific product differences (i.e., shape of fenders and placement of instruments, for example, in addition to the paint and decals).
"As the alliance continues to materialize, benefits will become more apparent and will make Suzuki's the most competitive and desired products in the industry." concluded Harris.
Inetersting enough eh? Maybe the new GSXR has a ZX10R Motor in it!?
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"Ya Gotta Have Big Ones!"
speeddemons.com
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10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted October 20, 2004 04:54 PM
Fish
My application is a race car, and the PC isn't very reliable or effective in them. With the old ZX10, the dyna ignition also failed regularly, or just didn't work. Don't know why, as others used it with no problem. Oh well.
Blazin
Any more details on your buddies R6 discovery, or information on the article that started this thread?
I did some more checking last night, and the '03 - '04 suzuki ECU has the same two connectors as the 10R. Its shaped differently, and is made by Denso, not mistubishi like the 10. The GSXR wiring diagram doesn't show pin numbers so without an actual harness to track down where everything goes its almost impossible to determine which ECU pins the teka tool connects to for programming.
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SPROCKET
Expert Class
Posts: 211
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posted October 21, 2004 02:52 PM
Rubberpants, thanks for the novel.
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AUT VINCERE AUT MORI.
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fattkaw
Expert Class
Posts: 277
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posted December 29, 2004 04:16 PM
does anybody know the web address for TEKA?
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sp500
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted December 29, 2004 07:17 PM
hopefully that'll clear some peoples misconceptions.
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted December 30, 2004 04:37 AM
There is alot of collaboration these days. I heard that there are two manufacturers of carbon fiber pipe for the chemical industries and these two companies make all the CF exhaust cans. Exhaust companies just buy the pipes and cut them off and add end caps. Hard to believe at first but I saw it on the internet. Now back to that R6 ecu.............
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If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
 
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eddyo
Parking Attendant
Posts: 20
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posted December 30, 2004 11:14 AM
I cut some wires today and my 10 runs smoother. I just cut the red ones. On a serious note the weather allowed me to ride my new 10 today and the suspension is the best I have ever felt at this point. I'll see what kind of head shake develops after I put the "break in" miles on?
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FP 10R
Expert Class
Fast Learner
Posts: 212
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posted December 30, 2004 12:21 PM
Just to get things straight, if you added Suzuki Honda and Yamaha together it would still not equal the size of KHI the total company and I am talking Bike, Car, Music, ect.
KHI design manufacturer and sell Commercial Aircraft, Supertankers, Bullet trains, Nuclear power plants ect and have been involved in almost every major Engineering project world wide since the second world war.
They are diverse in a huge number of ways and the Motorcycle division is tiny by comparison to the rest of the company but this is how they are recognised by the outside world.
I was not aware of the corporate giant KHI is until a good friend who has worked for them for more than 20 years in contract engineering filled me in on just exactly what they do.
In many instances no visible advertisement is present but you would be surprised just how many American/Foreign companies are co-owned by KHI but not identified as such.
Its just lucky the CEO of KHI is a bike nut so to speak just look at this years annual report, on the front cover is a ZX10R!
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"Life is not a rehearsal so make the most of it" Carefully
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sp500
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted December 30, 2004 11:09 PM
saw a kawasaki front end loader the other day, haha
there into everything
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