ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 02, 2004 11:25 AM
zx10 whimpy frame
I was talking to my local Kawi dealer the other day about the ZX-10 and he said something really strange. We were talking about the different liter bikes and he said he didn't think I would like the zx-10 because of the way I ride. He said that one reason the zx-10 has such a low weight was that the production frame was missing bracing and other bits that the production racers will have. The jist of what he was saying is that you could take the GSXR-1000 straight from the showroom to the track but that you really wouldn't want to do that with the zx10 because the production frame was to whimpy for 10/10ths riding.
I don't think he would bad mouth the zx just to get me to buy some other bike he had. He sells all four major brands and I've bought my last four bikes, 3 kawis and a yamaha, from this guy and know him pretty well. In fact he doesn't even have a gsxr 1000s on the floor and says he probably won't get anymore this year.
Have any of you heard anything about this or do you think he is just repeating some sales-speak he got from on of the other brand reps?
   
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted July 02, 2004 12:04 PM
I don't know what to say. I can only hope that it's not true. Then again, I'm not sure that I ride hard enough to affect the frame significantly. BTW ridgeracer, long time no see (if you're the same one from the early ZX-12 days).
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If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
 
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Michael Lee
Zone Head
Purchase Ivy
Posts: 729
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posted July 02, 2004 12:06 PM
I think he's full of shit. (My .10rCents)
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted July 02, 2004 12:31 PM
that's why he's working in a dealership; not an engineer for kawasaki
taking the advice from anyone at the dealer is an I D 10 T error
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Boman
Expert Class
Posts: 410
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posted July 02, 2004 12:33 PM
You aint wrong Michael Lee..........
Sounds like somebody may sale gixxers and have some still on the floor to sale....................
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blk10r
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted July 02, 2004 12:46 PM
caved one side of my10r frame in and popped it out with a rubber mallet
found out the hard way how weak and THIN they are
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted July 02, 2004 01:58 PM
Thin? Yes. Weak? No.
The frame was designed for a specific type of riding. I think it's a given what that "specific type" is. To utilize the bike outside it's designed parameters and one might even find the frame to be weak as well.
Now, admittedly, not all of us will utilize the 10R as a "track only" bike, but when used for that purpose, the frame shines both in it's strength and design. To expect it to be "crash worthy", the ZX-10R will be a great disappointment. It's not. Nor is the majority of the latest crop of high end sportbikes.
Sport Rider had an interesting editorial on how today's sportbikes, with the goal of reduced weight, the parts, ranging from fairings to frames have become very light and shockingly thin. Just look at the thickness of the 10R plastic and compare it to a 9R or a 12R. A small dump that used to just put a few "battle scars" on the fairings will now cause what can only be considered as "major" damage and maybe even render the bike "unridable" (broken rearsets, etc.).
The conclusion of the editorial was that this is not a bad thing. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what we asked for. We have always wanted bikes that were more powerful, better handling and lighter in weight. I believe the 10R has delivered all three in spades. Alas, with attaining such a high level of performance comes a price. It used to be just a "comfort" issue, but now it's a "ability to sustain damage".
If one is looking for a bike that they can throw to the ground after a stunt show, the 10R is not the bike. Maybe a old 7R would be a better choice for such. If one want a bike best suited for weekend back highway canyon carving and an occasional (or even a lot of) track days, the 10R is unquestionably a excellent choice.
Though the 10R might get expensive to repair when it was just a minor dump, the object is of course... not to crash. Since I was probably one of the first to have my 10R go down (and I wasn't the one riding it) in a low speed dump, I am very familiar with the expenses. Yet even after the crash (and yes, it did ding the frame), I have no doubt about it strength of durability.
Again, is the frame thin? Yes, but it's anything but "weak".
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted July 02, 2004 03:30 PM
Well said. Ditto.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted July 02, 2004 04:07 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 2 Jul 2004 17:10
BTW - The editorial was specifically referring to their crash of a Gixxer while testing. To say that the frame of the 10R was lacking bracing or anything else that would make it unsuitable for being a full blown race bike right out of the box, is laughable.
There are a couple 10R currently racing in CMRA and they have no modifications to the frame. Of course the rules would not allow it just as it is not allowed in AMA. As stated in the 2004 AMA Rule Book concerning the Superstock and Supersport classes:
11. Frame modifications are limited to the following:
a. Frame brackets may be installed to permit the use of racing type stands. The use of frame brackets to improve the original strength or stiffness of the frame is not allowed.
Is he implying that Tommy and Roger's Superstock bikes are illegal? Geez, he needs to contact the AMA and clue them in.
In the Superbike class, the rule concerning frames are:
i. The following items may not be altered from the originally approved model except as noted:
1. Stock main frame
a. Frame must display vehicle identification number.
b. Strengthening gussets and tubes may be added, but none may be removed.
c. Accessory brackets (radiator, shock reservoir, stands, etc.) may be changed, relocated, added or removed.
So how much does that salesman wish to bet that not only does a ZX-10R Superbike possible have strengthening gussets and tubes added, but so does Hondas, Yamahas, Suzukis and Ducatis as well?
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted July 02, 2004 04:26 PM
Isn't it just amazing how many of these one-hit-wonders are showing up?
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted July 02, 2004 05:24 PM
I dunno. The chassis sure feels like it's flexing a lot. I figured the axles or swingarm were to blame. It just doesn't have the taut feel my Gixxer has. Maybe that was the point the showroom twit was trying to make.
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zeta xray
Expert Class
Posts: 416
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posted July 02, 2004 06:39 PM
I am 100% in agreement with redelk on this. I think he covered all of the bases. I would like to expand on one thing. If the stock (as in, unmodified)chassis is stiff enough for Superstock racing with the tires they are using, I don't think we would be able to induce chassis flex with the tires us mortals can get. Expecially on the street.
The salesman must have had more Suzuki's available for sale or he was getting an extra incentive to move the Gixxers or he is poorly informed, like most of the salesmen I have encountered.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted July 02, 2004 07:33 PM
Edited By: redelk on 2 Jul 2004 20:35
quote:
I dunno. The chassis sure feels like it's flexing a lot. I figured the axles or swingarm were to blame. It just doesn't have the taut feel my Gixxer has. Maybe that was the point the showroom twit was trying to make.
You could have a valid point here and indeed, it might be the point the salesman was trying to make. Since he was out of any Gixxers and didn't expect to get any more this year leads me to think his statement wasn't made to sell a bike he didn't have.
Since you race yourself, you know that in a track environment, the feeling of "chassis flex" can come from a number of sources or even a combination of more than one source. Being such a new bike, sorting out these issues will take time. The Gixxer has had several years of development both by the manufacturer as well as the providers of aftermarket race components (ranging from tires to fork springs). How much time it takes to sort it out depends on how much of it is actually the bike and how much of it is in "non-frame related" parts.
Then again, you must also know that the handling characteristics of a Yamaha is different than a Gixxer's and the same would apply to the 10R or even a CBR. On the track or even on the street. That is just the nature of these bikes. It's not to say one is better than the other, but simply what one feels most comfortable on and accustom to. Articles that compared all the liter bikes on the track point out the Gixxer's comfort level attained from those years of development and it shows it the Gixxer's lap times. How much or how little of an amount the chassis "should" flex and "where or when" it does or doesn't do it, has been a designer's nightmare for decades and they haven't come up with the "perfect solution" yet.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 03, 2004 08:53 AM
Hmm...Redelk makes some good points. Now that I think about it when the dealer (he is the owner btw) says he didnt think the zx10 was for someone who rode like me I of course thought he was referring to how hard I ride, but as the guy who gave me the insurance quote for the last two bikes I trashed he may have been refering to its crash survivability 
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Michael Lee
Zone Head
Purchase Ivy
Posts: 729
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posted July 03, 2004 11:12 AM
Thats one way of looking at it 
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10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
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posted July 03, 2004 01:14 PM
Don't believe a word he says....
I never believe salesmen. I went BMW shopping once, for a 2002 TII (fuelie). They didn't have any. Oldest was a 320I with 150K miles. We went for a test anyway. While on the road the salesman said that even though it had a lot of miles the motor was pretty good, as it had good oil pressure. There was no oil pressure gauge on the dash, and I inquired how he "knew" it had good pressure. He told me that its an old mechanics trick where, if in third gear, the speedo and tach either pointed straight up, or at each other (or something like that), it meant it had good oil pressure. When I said that makes no sense and questioned that stupid statement, he backed away real quick when he figured I wasn't the standard moron car shopper.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted July 03, 2004 01:50 PM
now THAT is funny 
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fattkaw
Expert Class
Posts: 277
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posted July 03, 2004 08:29 PM
I know the stock gixer 1000 was snapping the top shock mount right off the frame. thats what turned me to the 10r
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted July 03, 2004 09:49 PM
quote:
I know the stock gixer 1000 was snapping the top shock mount right off the frame. thats what turned me to the 10r
Never heard that before. I think it's bullshit. Have you actually seen this?
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted July 04, 2004 04:11 AM
Thats because the Gixxer1000s are slow selling due to the release of the ZX10s, so he tried to hook you into a Gixxer...
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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fattkaw
Expert Class
Posts: 277
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posted July 04, 2004 04:39 AM
the first year gixer snapped them of in endurance races, read about heard about. if I find it in my old road racing world mag I'll let you know month and page.
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swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
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posted July 04, 2004 06:40 AM
Yamahas are famous for lightweight frames and subframes. Just part of racing.
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roym3
Novice Class
Posts: 43
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posted July 07, 2004 12:14 PM
The bike is already 10/10's.LOL
These frames are better than last years factory race bikes.
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scott_in_fl
Novice Class
Posts: 95
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posted July 07, 2004 03:17 PM
Wow, there's a serious amount of shit flying around here.
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